Any problem with standard 1911 trigger pull?

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Excalibur

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Just read Massad Ayoob's article in "Combat Handguns" on Light Trigger Liability. He recommends (and says he carries) a 8lb. trigger pull to avoid unnecessary prosecution. My question is; is there any problem with the standard triggers on most 1911's? They certainly are lighter than 8 lbs. My Wilson CQB compact is about 4lbs. and my Protector is a little lighter than that I think. They are "factory standard" so is some hotshot prosecutor going to make a stink over that?:confused:
 
(I haven't read the article in question) I agree with Mr. Ayoob on some things, disagree on others. This is one of those views I disagree with, simply because the vast majority of guns have a trigger pull lower than 8 lbs. (well, the guns with a manual safety, anyway) straight from the factory. If a prosecutor can use this against you in a self-defense shooting, you have a really bad attorney. An ND or AD case might be different.
 
Ayoob tends to err on the side of caution in these things.

And for most of the gun owners out there he's probably right.

Remember his readers are, for the most part, casual gun owners and shooters.

We tend to be a pretty hard core bunch here on THR as far as our interest goes.

For the person that buys a gun for defense and shoots it a couple of times a year, it's excellent advice. Unfortunately that includes the majority of gun owners.
 
There are advantages and disadvantages to everything. That 8# trigger may (or may not) help with your legal liability, but it also may get you killed when you four-finger the gun and wing the guy with the wrecking bar instead of zippering him.

Decide for yourself.

- Chris
 
Simple Solution:

When you have a 1911, keep the safety on and keep your finger off the trigger, resting on the side of the gun outside the trigger guard until you need to shoot. When you are done shooting, remove your finger from the trigger, rest it on the side of the gun out of the trigger guard and reset the safety if the gun is not empty. That way, you can tell the court you intended to shoot. Not even you will have doubt....Hair trigger or not.

Practice pointing your 1911(or any gun with a safety), sweeping off the safety, slipping your finger into the trigger guard, and pulling the trigger how ever many times you might imagine it will take to neutralize a threat, finishing up removing your finger from the trigger guard and sweeping on the safety, all as one "movement". Don't hesitate anywhere along the process, because this is a "shoot to neutralize a threat" exercise. If you practice stopping at any point for a "second guess", it might set you up in a position with finger on the trigger, pointed at a supposed attacker, and now you could have that unintended discharge. If you start, finish. If something changes with regards to the situation half way through your "routine'', don't stop there. Go back to set point with your finger off the trigger, outside the trigger guard, and the safety back on.

If you have begun to shoot and realize the shoot might not be righteous, remove finger from the trigger, place it outside the trigger guard, and reset the safety. Any further shooting could be considered negligent if you do not return to "set point".

Practice all three scenarios. Have a partner shout "threat!" and begin. Have your partner randomly shout either "cease!" to stop mid-routine or "down!" to stop when the threat has been neutralized, or "rest!" if you empty your gun and the threat is neutralized. If you hear neither, reload and continue until your partner shouts a command. You needn't practice this with live ammo, but it would be good to use live ammo often enough to become comfortable with the more intense dynamics of live fire. If you get in the habit of starting and finishing with your finger outside the trigger guard and the safety on unless the slide is locked back, you should be safe from an AD or ND. It must become routine or you may not respond fully under stress.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. If that doesn't convince you to take a stand and protect your inalienable rights and freedoms, nothing will. If that doesn't convince you to maintain your personal sovereignty, you are already someone else's subject. If you don't secure your rights and freedoms to maintain your personal sovereignty now, it'll be too late to come to me for help when they come for you. I will already be dead because I had to stand alone. B.E.Wood
 
Then have your lawyer argue that the majority of police have a lower trigger weight. The DAK, LEM, Safe Action Triggers, and DA/SA triggers are usually not as high as an 8lb pull. You could also argue (assuming you local PD issues Glocks or other DAO gun) that your gun is safer due to the safety, the grip safety, and internal one. Just my $0.02 worth.
 
He needs to write something so he can get his check. He's picked about every pistol made over the last 20+ years as best home defense gun. Even wrote haw good a IverJohnson 25 or 22 was a knocking down steel plates and would make a good last ditch SD pistol. Only so much you can say after 20 years or writing about SD and Pistols. I stopped reading him a long time ago.
 
In light of the legal proceedings you will face, both criminal and civil, after self defense with a 1911 style single action handgun, it would be wise to show that you've had training, complete with some form of certification, with that style of firearm and are VERY familiar with everything about it, including trigger pull wgt.

Worth repeating, make certain you can show paperwork or some other certification, in court, that you have participated in XYZ's shooting class/school, etc using that style handgun with that style trigger, and have shot 1000's of rounds annually to maintain proficiency.

Probably also wise to avoid excessive tweaking or "Hair" trigger, don't tweak safeties, and avoid use of words like "accidental discharge"... things like that.

Other than that, you should be able to make a case that some police departments, our military, etc use them every day, or have since 1912.

That's my take on it FWIW. And, worth every cent you paid for it. ;)
 
Excalibur said:
They certainly are lighter than 8 lbs. My Wilson CQB compact is about 4lbs. and my Protector is a little lighter than that I think. They are "factory standard" so is some hotshot prosecutor going to make a stink over that?
Click to expand...

First, you need to understand the playing field. Do you live in a state that is hostile to gun ownership? That might influence things a tiny bit. The most important thing will be the facts of any shooting. If the facts are in your favor, it is unlikely the trigger pull will be an issue at the CRIMINAL level. One side effect of criminals murdering people and claiming it was accidental is that there are hundreds of examples of state firearms examiners testifying in court that 4-5lb trigger pulls are NOT hair triggers.

However, unless you are fortunate enough to live in one of the states that forbid such suits, you can still be sued in civil court by the guy you shot, or his family. I can show two cases from 2005 where firearms were used to defend inside of a person's home and AFTER a warning was given. In both cases, the facts strongly favored the shooter and the shooting was ruled justified on the criminal side of the house. Despite that, the victim of the home invasion was sued by the family of the deceased all the way to the Appellate level.

If you have read the Ayoob article, you should pay close attention to his "follow the money" portion of the article. It explains how lawyers get paid in these types of cases and the lawyers who take these kinds of cases don't do it unless they get paid.

Personally, I think Mr. Ayoob is a bit on the cautious side but as I understand it he does a lot of work in police cases - because the police have the deep pockets of the taxpayer behind them, they attract a lot more bottomfeeders looking for a quick payout than your average citizen would. You also have to understand that when you get sued all the time, a little thing like going to an 8lb trigger that reduces those lawsuits by 5% makes a big difference in the budget at the end of the year.

Large police agencies are looking at litigation prevention agencies from an entirely different viewpoint than an individual would and from their viewpoint, things like 8lb trigger and DAO can make a lot of sense. You just have to understand that a small edge for a large agency can amount to substantial budget numbers that justify the change. In your own personal existence, whether that edge is worth the tradeoffs you have to make in ease of use is up to you to decide.

One other thing I would point out is that Mas Ayoob is part of the ALI's Continuing Legal Education program on self-defense. The ALI is an extremely influential organization. They have a strong influence on what acceptable legal doctrine. You simply do not reach that position without having some knowledge of what you are talking about. Finally, remember that information on the Internet is worth what you paid for it. There is a lot of good info out there; but a fair share of bad info as well. Anybody who has read THR long enough has seen someone give advice that was downright dangerous. If you are really concerned about it, there is no substitute for contacting a lawyer and getting a professional opinion.
 
When it comes to deadly force that was intentionally used (ie not a ND) the tool used to deliver the force is irrelevant, the only relevant question is whether deadly force was justified. Whether the gun has a 3#, 5#, 8# or 12# trigger pull will not matter, and whether you used a gun, a knife, a broadsword, or an icepick won't matter, only whether or not the deadly was justified will matter.

Where things like trigger pull, and gun modifications might play a role is if someone is consider to be criminally negligent as a result of a ND, or sued in a civil tort for negligence as a result of a ND.

For example, if you unintentionally shoot your neighbor, and your gun has a 2# trigger, a pinned grip safety, and the series 80 fp block was removed, a jury might consider that behavior to show a negligent disregard for firearms safety.

The only case law I've seen cited concerning modifications to a firearm being a factor are in relation to the shooter claiming the discharge of the firearm of was unintentional.
 
SOT said:
When it comes to deadly force that was intentionally used (ie not a ND) the tool used to deliver the force is irrelevant, the only relevant question is whether deadly force was justified
Click to expand...

Sure, if you can prove that the use of deadly force was intentional then the weight of trigger pull is no longer relevant. However, can you prove it was intentional? You say you saw an intruder breaking into your home and fired at him intentionally. I say you detained the intruder and in your adrenaline-soaked state shot him accidentally as he stood there complying with your every command. Even if you did shoot intentionally, does having a 2lb trigger help you here?

These type of cases do happen, look at Luis v. Alvarez from Florida - a police officer shot a suspect going for a gun during an arrest. The suspect claimed that the officer had his revolver cocked and shot him accidentally when another officer bumped him.

Proving intention can be a pretty difficult business at times...
 
I haven't read that article but are we sure he was talking about the trigger pull on a 1911 rather than a Glock? I agree with Mr. Ayoob on many things but 8 lbs pull on a 1911 seems to be far too heavy. Actually too heavy for any single action handgun for any kind of decent shooting.
 
Whether it's a legitimate shooting has nothing to do with trigger pull, the color of one's socks, or the phase of the moon.
Click to expand...

It must be easy for everyone to recognize a legitimate shooting. They're undoubtedly immediately obvious to everyone. That's probably why no innocent person has ever been arrested, or tried, or found guilty of murder or manslaughter, or sentenced to prison or death anywhere in the United States of America ever.
 
I haven't read that article but are we sure he was talking about the trigger pull on a 1911 rather than a Glock? I agree with Mr. Ayoob on many things but 8 lbs pull on a 1911 seems to be far too heavy. Actually too heavy for any single action handgun for any kind of decent shooting.

No he didn't mention 1911's. He was writing mainly about DAO weapons. I did not misinterpret him as applying that to 1911's. My question was that 1911's do have a much lighter trigger pull than most other guns and wondered if that could be a liability. Also, I had no beef with Mr. Ayoob. I read his articles frequently and have no quarrel with him. If I was ever involved in a lawsuit I would want him on my side. Thanks for all the good responses.
 
Absent a positive safety such as the 1911's, the bottom line on trigger weight is that it needs to be heavy enough to be deliberate, and light enough not to interfere with accuracy, or require excessive trigger attention.
 
Also keep in mind the context he was discussing the shootings in... in talking about DAO and 8lb triggers he was discussing police department responses to past controversies surrounding shootings. The idea behind both of those things is that they make it harder for the other guy to claim the shooting was unintentional in court. They might not eliminate such claims if you get sued 100 times per year; but they might reduce those claims to some degree - and you don't have to miss too many lawsuits to see a big savings.

On the other hand, as a regular joe, you have to ask yourself if whatever edge you gain in not getting sued is worth the tradeoff you make in function. You are unlikely to get sued 100 times a year, so is an X% better chance of avoiding that issue in a single incident worth having to learn an 8lb DAO trigger for you?
 
Some criminal defense lawyers will tell you that your firearm it doesn't matter, because they have no idea what a TDA, DAO, SA, etc are. Some lawyers know firearms, and will tell you that your firearm doesn't matter. Still some know firearms, and think that firearm design matters.

Talk to the guy or gal you're going to call at 2:00am, when things go south. Make sure you have similar opinions on the issue and your lawyer knows what you're talking about. You'll will have have more confidence in each other, less stress, and a better legal strategy.

Same goes for training and ammunition selection.

If you have to sit infront of a jury and you have no faith in your lawyer, the jury is going to notice. And you're going to look guilty.

Find a good lawyer, that has an opinion you can agree with, and follow his advice.
 
"my first question ..."

After reading Mas Ayoob's "Light Trigger" piece in CH (which is where I found out about THR), I now wonder if my new carry gun, a Sig 229 SAS .40 cal. (with the DAK trigger system) which I have been very pleased with so far will be putting me at undue risk for this type of liability. Any thoughts on this?
 
CYA is here to stay

Look at the environment Ayoob was writing in. It was a gun banners paradise in many states. He worked the CYA angle hard.
If the trigger pull is X from the factory and your state's a sanctuary for polpotians then don't change it.
 
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