Any REAL .38 Calibers?

[Nightcrawler]

Was pondering this last night. Are there any .38 cartridges out there that actually have a 0.38" bore diameter? I know some old ones did.

.38 Special has a 9mm, or .355-.357" bullet. (After all, 9mm and .38 can use the same barrels). .38 Super uses a 9mm .355" bullet.

If I'm not mistaken, the old .38-40 round used a .40" bullet, hence the Ruger Vaquero convertible .38-40 with an extra cylinder for .40S&W. Even the old .38-55 rifle cartridge used a .40" bullet, I read someplace.

.380ACP uses...yep, a 9mm, .355" bullet.

So. Are there any ACTUAL .38 caliber weapons out there? Just curious.

 

[Jim Watson]

"Even the old .38-55 rifle cartridge used a .40" bullet, I read someplace."

You read wrong. My Winchester Highwall is .379" in the grooves and shoots most accurately with a .380" bullet. Ballards often run larger.

The old .38 outside lubricated, heel bullet rounds like .38 Short and Long Colt, .38 rimfire, and .380 Revolver (British) are listed as having bullet diameters of .375", pretty close.

The neatest and last of the true .38s I know of was the 1910 9.8mm Colt, in a 7/8 scale 1911. They made two prototypes but dropped the project when they got the US Army contract. There was a similar 9.65mm Browning, also pre WW I.

 

[Chuck Perry]

In the latest issue of Guns Petty did an article on the 38 Special wadcutter. In it he states that for some reason in the days of yore, the outside diameter of a cartridge's brass case was used to indicate the caliber. He claims this is why the 38 Special is called a 38 and not a 35.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Chuck,

That is the case.

The bullets were known as "heeled," in that a heel, or extension, on the bullet was seated in the case mouth, and the total bullet diameter was the same as the outside of the case mouth.

The .22 LR is the only common round that still uses a heeled bullet.

 

[Lone Star]

Check out the .41 Long Colt. The reason the guns were called .38's is probably that .36 cap and ball revolvers used a .375" ball, and the metallic cartridge rounds needed to be diffrentiated from .36's.

Lone Star

 

[Mike Irwin]

Lone,

The .41 Colt started out, in the days of the heeled bullet, as very close to .41 caliber. Same with the .41 Short Colt.

 

[Blackhawk]

Good question.

Good answers.

 

[Lone Star]

Thanks, Blackhawk, but let's get a better answer:

Mike Irwin is correct that the .41 Long Colt bullet (heel type) originally measured .401". Really, a .40 caliber. BUT... the more modern inside-lubed bullet measures .387".
And the question was whether there are any true .38's...

I've seen this data various places, but got this from, "Cartridges of the World", 9th edition.

Lone Star
P.S. Some sources show the bullet diameter as .386". If you have a .41 Colt, slug your bore and size cast bullet diameter accordingly.

 

[Jim K]

Some terms being thrown about are causing confusion. Are we talking bore size or bullet diameter? In breechloaders, bullet diameter is groove diameter, not bore diameter; the bullet is forced into the rifling, not expanded to fill the grooves.

The .38 S&W, as originally loaded, was just about .380, and was a heel type bullet. When you could still buy those copper washed .38 S&W bullets from Winchester, I used to use them in a .36 caliber Colt Navy. Worked fine, fit tightly in the cylinder, and no mess with grease.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

"The .38 S&W, as originally loaded, was just about .380, and was a heel type bullet."

Jim,

That's what I thought, too, but apparently the .38 S&W was NOT a .38-cal. bullet.

From Roy Jinks' "History of Smith & Wesson," pg. 106 --

"Drawings of the new pocket moder were completed in 1874 and illustrate the gun as a .38 Rim Fire (.38 Single Action, First Model); however D.B. Wesson was not pleased with a rim fire cartridge and designed a new .38 center fire cartridge to be used. To insure accuracy and ease of reloading, this cartridge used a .36 caliber bullet that was so firmly seated within a cartridge case that it was not necessary to crimp the case.

The outside dimension of the cartridge case was .380".

From this, it would appear that the .38 S&W was S&W's first homegrown non-heeled bullet, after development in 1870 of the .44 Russian at Russian request.

 

[jar]

The 38 S&W is still close to .38 than the 9mm or 38 Special family. And it's still a joy to shoot. Here's a family photo, from the left to right, .380, 9mm Mak, 9mm Para, 38 S&W, 38 Special, 357 Mag, and then the 45acp and 45 Colt.



the 9mm Mak and the 38 S&W are the closest to .38.

 

[Ross]

Interesting thread.
In _Cartridge Case Measurements_ ,the late Arthur J. Mack has a chapter listing cartridges by bullet diameter. He lists eight at .380":
1. .38 Bacon Revolver Rim-fire
2. .36 Thuer long case
3. .41 Colt Automatic
4. 10mm Soerabaja
5. .38 Meig Long Rim-fire
6. 9.4 Dutch East Indies Revolver
7. .38 Worrell
8. 9.6x59.8 Peabody
There are several at .379 and .381 also.
My .38 cartridge collection only has three of these.
The 9.8 Colt he lists at .381".
Thirty-eights exist, but are not in most of our collections.
I made 9.4 Dutch from .303 Savage brass and unsized but shortened .375 bullets, in case you need to know.
Cheers from Grayest California,
Ross