38 caliber confusions help

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rocinante

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I have a ruger vaquero pistol and a marlin 1894 rifle that shoot 357 magnum and 38 special. The 38 special next to my 9mm round is huge, how long is it? Also was shocked by how much more bang and recoil the 357 magnum had over the 38 special. Just slightly bigger but DAMN!!

I have a bersa 380cc that shoots 380 ACP. This caliber is also called 38 short or 38 kurtz???? What does ACP stand for? Does it have an American origin or German since it seems to been popular with the Walther PPK? Dimension wise it is 9mm x 17 I think, Makarov is 9x18, Luger Parabellum 9x19.

What is a 38 super and what gun fires it? For that matter what is just a 38 and what fires it? Any of my guns?
 
The 38 special is bigger because it was designed for black powder the 9mm luger was not. The 9mm has more power than most 38 special loadings.
The diameter of the 38 special is .357. The diameter of the 9mm luger is .355. The diameter of the 380 is .355. The 380 is a 9mm short or "Kutrz" , which is german for short. The 380 was invented by John Browning and the ACP stands for "Automatic Colt Pistol". John Browning designed this cartrige along with many others for Colt guns. Hope this helps. Sorry I forgot one the 38 Super. The 38ACP was designed first by John Browning "Ala (ACP)" in Colts earlier pistols 1903 1906 models which turn out to be the 1911. In the mid 20's Colt beefed up the 38 ACP cartridge and power and named it 38 Super, with more power for their 1911 guns. The case is bigger than a 9mm luger but smaller than a 38 special and more powerfull than both in most loadings. Bullet diameter today is .355 for the 38 super. Don't get hung up with the name "38" because none of these guns are really 38 caliber in diameter, which should be .380. Hopefully your not too confused.
 
.38 Super is used in .38 Super 1911s.

ACP = Automatic Colt Pistol. Originally American in origin.

For that matter what is just a 38 and what fires it? Any of my guns?

AFAIK, there are no ".38" rounds with no identifying words or whatnot...since there are several .38 caliber cartridges (.38 S&W, .38 Special, .38 Super, there's an obsolete .38 cartridge just for automatic pistols).
 
it helps but confuses me more too.

calibers are expressions of decimals of an inch so if these rounds are 357 or 355 why call them 38 at all? Is the caliber the measure of the base and not the casing? Regardless why didn't they call the 357 magnum the 38 magnum????? although i do like the way 357 sounds.

So is the 380 acp the grand daddy of all the modern 9mm and 38 caliber family?
 
Rocinante: Time to invest in "Cartridges of the World" at amazon.com.

The term .38 Caliber has to do with a combination of outside lubricated bullets and land/groove diameter.

As for the 9x19mm NATO round it just happened when the .30 Luger was turned into a straight case to increase the bullet size.

Caliber and cartridge names have little to do with each other. The whole naming thing just "growed."

So we just relax, enjoy and chuckle when we finally realize we understand, more or less, what works in what.

Now, explain the difference between .357 .375 .358 and .38/55 in twenty-five words or less.

Geoff
Who notes the .44 Magnum is actually a .424 while the .41 Magnum is .410.
 
No.

The barrel is .358" groove diameter.

You will note that the case is .379" outside diameter, close enough to .38. The old .38 Long Colt shot a heel type bullet (like a .22lr) such that bullet diameter was the same as brass diameter. Therefore a true .38. When they went to inside lubricated bullets of the inside diameter of the case and reduced barrel dimensions to match, they kept the old name to promote sales. Most caliber designations are advertising and don't necessarily describe any measurement of bullet or barrel.
 
The original caliber designations were derived from gauge or the number of round lead balls per pound. .31 - .32; .36 - .38 and .44 - .45 came to even numbers. I don't remember exactly what they are but .36 I think is 100 balls per pound and .54 is 30 balls per lb, IIRC. That's how such seemingly random sizes became standard.

If you read the OLD literature, you will see the gunsmith made the gun to shoot a ball sized 50 to the pound, for example.
 
I have a bersa 380cc that shoots 380 ACP. This caliber is also called 38 short or 38 kurtz???? What does ACP stand for? Does it have an American origin or German since it seems to been popular with the Walther PPK? Dimension wise it is 9mm x 17 I think, Makarov is 9x18, Luger Parabellum 9x19.

In the US, the 380 Auto is also known as .380 ACP ("Automatic Colt Pistol") as a way of advertising for Colt, and as a way of separating it from the .38 ACP cartridge (the fore-runner of the .38 Super cartridge). Since European buyers wouldn't know or wouldn't care that Colt ever had anything to do with the .380 Auto cartridge, they call it the 9mm Browning Short, 9mm Kurz, 9mmK, or 9x17mm cartridge.

What is a 38 super and what gun fires it? For that matter what is just a 38 and what fires it? Any of my guns?

38 Super is like a "magnumized" 9mm Luger, roughly equivalent to several Eurpean long 9mms like the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 9mm Largo, 9mm Steyr, etc. In the US, this is mainly a handgun round, but there have been a few submachineguns chambered for it (it was a factory chambering in the Thompson SMG at one point.) Just why a "38" is known as a "38" takes a little bit of history; when the "38" metallic cartridge was first developed, the bullets actually DID measure .38/100s of an inch, but these were lower-pressure loads that used black powder, and the bullets were held in the thin metal cases by a "heel" on the bullet, the same way a .22 LR cartridge is today; the outside diameter of the bullet was the same as the outside diameter of the cartridge case (.38"). When smokeless powder came about, the designers realized that they could get a lot more powerful cartridge in the same size of cartridge, but that if anyone put one of those new more powerful cartridges into an older "original" "38", it would blow the older gun to pieces, so they had to find some way of telling people that this wasn't a good idea. So, the new cartridge was named the "38 Smith & Wesson Special" (in this case, S&W used its name as free advertising for themselves, the same way Colt had for the .38 ACP, .380 ACP, .45 ACP, 45 Colt, etc.). Today, 38 Smith & Wesson Special is known mainly as 38 S&W Special, 38 S&W Spl, or just 38 Special/Spl. The "Special" also shows that this is a different cartridge from the "38 Smith & Wesson" which (like the original "38"s) is a larger dimeter case. How cartridges get their names is a whole story unto themselves, and is usually some sort of compromise between letting people know precisely which is the proper ammunition to use, and advertising for the company or companies that developed that firearm or ammunition.
 
I believe the .38 Super and the .38 Auto have a .356 dia.

9x23, 9x19 para, 9x18 mak, & 9x17 (.380) kurtz - .355

.38 spcl, .357 mag & .36 cal cap and ball - 0.357

The .38 special is/was a black powder cartridge all of the others were designed for smokeless powder. The .357 was developed from hot-rodded .38 spcls, such as the .38-44 heavy duty. The extra length was added to prevent it from being chambered in weaker .38 special guns.

The .380 auto (9x17) was developed by JMB for Colt's M1903 and is generally considered the max for a blowback operated pistols.

The 9x18 mak was developed by the Soviets for the Markov service pistol its powere is between the .380 and 9x19.

The 9x19 Luger parabelum was developed from the .30 Luger which was derived from the .30 Mauser.

The .38 Super is a higher pressure version of the older .38 ACP. The +P head stamp is to prevent it from being chambered in older pistols. The Super was developed independently from the 9mm Luger. I believe it was developed for shooting through car doors and such. It was also marketed in Mexico since they can't own guns in military chamberings.
 
9x23, 9x19 para, 9x18 mak, & 9x17 (.380) kurtz - .355

Warning: the 9x18 is NOT .355, it's .365... it's actualy closer to 9.2 mm than 9mm. I'm not sure what harm that error could lead to (unless you are a reloader) but there you have it.

The caliber name and actual caliber usually have nothing to do with each other. Beyond the 9mm example above, here's another one: bullets that are 0.308" in diameter are called 30cal in some cartridges and 32cal in others. Why? Because 30 is a traditional rifle caliber and 32 is a traditional pistol caliber as far as I can tell.
 
Well, guys, there IS a 9x18 that is a true .355" 9mm. Two of them, actually, the 9mm Ultra of the 1930s, and the 9mm Police of the 1970s. The Ultra was meant for the Luftwaffe, but Goering wanted Krieghoff Lugers; and the German police just went all the way to 9mm Parabellum instead of stopping with the PP Super 9x18. The Soviet 9.2x18 Makarov/Stechkin is just a confusing factor.

I always like to point out that the .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester ALL shoot the same diameter bullet, .224 inch.

But the .22 Savage High Power and .22 Remington Magnum (Jet) do not.
 
I always like to point out that the .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester ALL shoot the same diameter bullet, .224 inch.

Forgot a couple;)

And lets not forget that .22 Hornet morphed to the current standard, and that the most common .22, the Long Rifle, does not use .224" bullets either.

By the time one can understand cartridge nomeclature, you've got almost enough abstract capacity to understand BATFE. Almost.
 
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