Any Tankers (as in M1A battle tank) in the audience? Or other military?

[effengee]

I'm not sure how well this post fits here on the gun forum but a Tank has a gun, and it's mobile, and the military has guns, and... O.K. I'm reaching, but here it goes anyway...

I was just watching "Courage Under Fire"
Which on it's own is an O.K. movie to watch on a rainy Saturday.
I was wondering why Denzel's character, an Army M-1 Tank Commander would be wearing parachute jump wings on his chest???
He also appears to be wearing a helicopter wings pin from Vietnam era.
I never read the book, so I don't know if maybe his character was in Vietnam as AIRCAV prior to joining the Armored Cavalry? Could he/would he still wear his medals from a different division/regiment/unit?
Is it common/uncommon to go from jumping out of perfectly good airplanes to tracking around in the mud?

Oh, here's a few gun related things:

Do depleted Uranium sabot rounds penetrate M-1 armor?

I thought that if it has a big red cross painted on it that it means it's not a combat vehicle and therefore doesn't need a door gunner... (this of course is a rhetorical statement)

How hard would it be to hit a T-67 with a fuel bladder, and then hit said bladder with an emergency flare from a pitching helicopter that is under fire from several AK-47's?

Is it Standard Operating Procedure for Cobra Gunships to cross fields of fire?

Would an M-16 still function after being rubbed and tossed around in the Iraqi desert as many times as that one? From what I hear from our guys in Iraq it seems that the talcum-like dust over there is terrible on the actions.

I know that it's a hollywood drama, but I'm still just wondering...

jim

 

[Top_Gunn]

Anybody who has completed airborne school can wear jump wings. Lots of people go there and then get assigned somewhere other than an airborne unit. Same in principle for pilot's wings, though I think it would be unusual for a tanker to have gone through flight school.

 

[Eric F]

How hard would it be to hit a T-67 with a fuel bladder, and then hit said bladder with an emergency flare from a pitching helicopter that is under fire from several AK-47's?

Luck can find a way I am sure but realistically I dont think it would kill the tank. It might kill the engine by virtue of sucking all the air away from the intake but it would only be a tempoary thing. Fuel will burn fairly quickly. A couple of hunderd gallons would only burn for 5-10 minutes if dispersed over a 20x20 area. I dont know how much that bladder had but it cant be that much.

 

[Tirod]

It's Hollywood drama, I'm not wondering at all.

Aside from the tactics, lots of tanker's get jump wings. It's a necessity for a career, and the door is relatively open to most for the class. Branch is almost immaterial. IIRC, Air Cav is part of the Armor branch, lots of tankers wear pilot's wings, too.

As for the M16, if you keep it dry, most of the dust will shake or cycle out. Excessive oil is what causes the problem. Keep the dust cover closed, and something over the muzzle. It's a battle rifle designed for poor climate, not a precision machined and tightly fitted shooting instrument good only on 72* days. Good bolt lockup and pin tolerances are important, but working clearances are generous for a reason. Even new, they rattle.

 

[larry starling]

I am a EX M-1 tanker that had jump wings. At one time the 82nd Airborne had the M-551 Sheridan and many of us that were stationed at FT Bragg. Left and went to other post's(unit's) after they retired the vehicle. So yes it is possible for a M-1 tanker to have airborne wings....
Bco 3-73rd Armor (m-5551a1)
A Troop 5-17 Cav 2ID (M-60A3)
Bco 3-67 Armor 2AD/1CAV (M-1's,M-1a1's,M-1a1HA)
HHC 2/252 Armor NCANG (m-1, M-1a1)

 

[TxState101]

Anybody who has completed airborne school can wear jump wings. Lots of people go there and then get assigned somewhere other than an airborne unit. Same in principle for pilot's wings, though I think it would be unusual for a tanker to have gone through flight school.

My great uncle was a tanker then later flew helicopters, so I guess it isn't that unusual.

 

[21H40]

The helicopter wings are more likely "Air Assault" than pilot wings... I haven't seen the movie in years, but pilots are not near as common as air assault qualified soldiers.

 

[effengee]

My armchair generalship...

I guess my daddy was right when he said:

"The only dumb question is the one that's never asked."

 

[Duke Junior]

At one point in the mid 1960's, the 4th Battalion 68 Armor was part of the 82nd Airborne at Ft.Bragg.
Some of those tankers subsequently went to jump school at Ft.Benning.I believe the experiment lasted less than 2 years and the Armored unit was than disconnected from Airborne and dispatched to Germany,I believe.
As Topp Gunn points out it was and is not that uncommon for a Trooper who earned his wings to be in a "leg" outfit.
So Denzel wearing wings in a Tank outfit certainly is a credible real life possibility.
Saluting and saying "All the way,Sir!" to an 82nd officer with an Armor patch on your chest is a little weird.

 

[Aaryq]

I'm not a soldier, and know very little about how the Army works. I am, however a Marine in the Air Wing. I do know that the Marine Corps will send FAC (Forward Air Controller) Qualled pilots to ground units to talk in CAS (Close Air Support). There's also the posibility that he was a Aviator Drop. In the USMC, before the pilots are trained on a specific type/model/series they already have their wings (in Pensacola) and rate them from that point after. I have a friend in my Bible Study who has wings but was dropped mid-course when he was learning to be a Cobra Driver. Hope this helps.

 

[Franksterm1]

I am a former M1 tanker (and M60A3 for that matter)

I recall more Armor branch officers than 19 series enlisted having jump wings. I was more beneficial to them because they tended to cross train more than the enlisted did. Armor company commanders could also be Cavalry company commanders because the Armor branch encompasses both. Most of our Scouts had Air Assault, Airborne wings or both. Here's a link that gives a fair overview

Commissioned Officers
http://www.branchorientation.com/armor/

Enlisted
http://www.us-army-info.com/pages/mos/armor/19k.html

 

[wideym]

Officers in Combat Arms tend to go to as many "badge" schools as possible early in their carrer, usually during ROTC or Military Academies. It's not unusual for cadidates to attend Jump School, Air Assault, Ranger, Pathfinder, etc.. before they are commisioned due to 3 or 4 years of education, or to attend right after commisioning.

I don't know about DU rounds taking out an M1, but I imagine they would be the most effective round against it.

As for door gunners, even helos might need a doorgunner in a hot LZ. Although when I was medivaced in Iraq they didn't, they needed the space for stretchers. The same goes for fuel blatters. That part seems like pure hollywood crap, what pilot wants 500 gallons of Avfuel sitting behind them in a plastic blivit.

As far as dropping one on a Soviet tank, (Never heard of a T-67, only T-54/55,62,64,&72 back then) it would probably light-off from a hot engine. Tank engines get really hot and JP4 lights much easier than JP8, turning it into a giant Molatov Cocktail.

CUF was one big Hollywood fantacy that never even remotely had any basis in fact.

 

[mondocomputerman]

My best friend was an M1 tank commander, in charge of 4 tanks. He went to officer training at West Point. He also had his wings, jumped a couple times I think. I'll ask him.

 

[possum]

i am an Infantry Sgt. and i work closly with tankers. i have been to the "sandbox" for a total of 27months. and been in the army a while, that is my background. that is good enough for these purposes.

I will not disclose info about DU ammunition and armor on a public forum.

as for the other queston the other posters have already given you the right answers.

 

[bgeddes]

At one point in the mid 1960's, the 4th Battalion 68 Armor was part of the 82nd Airborne at Ft.Bragg.

When I was stationed at Bragg in the late '80's part of our division (the 82d) had Sheriden? tanks. Very small as far as tanks go, and I believe they were Korean War era. The only reason we had them is they were air drop capable. With enough silk strapped to them, you could shove them out the back door of a C-130.

Lots of people in my unit, me included wore Jump wings and aviation wings. I was in the Aviation Brigade.

 

[ArmySon]

I'm an 11B Platoon Sergeant with jump wings and air assault wings. I've seen some tankers with jump wings. Some changed MOS and got their jump wings prior to being a tanker. Some got lucky and had it in their contract. Most officers will get airborne school while at ROTC, OCS or West Point regardless of their branch.

 

[Steve Raacke]

I am ex-19K (M1 armor crewman). Drove the M1A1 for 3rd Infantry in Germany and M1 and M1A1 for 1st Cav in Ft Hood and Desert Shield/Storm.
As for the whole helicopther, fuel bladder, flare gun thing, I don't have a clue. I sure didn't do anything like that while I was there.

 

[Sunray]

"...wearing parachute jump wings..." Had the priviledge to know a seconded to Militia, CF, Reg Force RCD(Royal Canadian Dragoons) Armoured Corps, LCol who had jump wings. They were a pay scale/I-wanna-do-it-thing then though. Big Al was extremely fit for a 50ish year old guy. I'd have gone with him anywhere.
effengee, get a copy of Tom Clancy's 'Armoured Cav'. It's one of his truly excellent non-fiction books. It's very difficult to hurt an M1 tank and it's an old model of the Abrams. Read the rest of 'em too. They're all a very good read. Your local public library or Amazon.
"...Could he/would he still wear his medals from a different division/regiment/unit?..." They're not medals. They're qualification badges.
"...to go from jumping out of perfectly good airplanes to tracking around in the mud?..." That's what Para's do. It's daft, but that's what they do and extremely well. The Para's are a very highly motivated bunch.
"...to hit a T-67..." A what? A T-67 is a wee single engine training aircraft.

 

[effengee]

My Apologies!!!

About the T-67, I'm sorry for not knowing the EXACT designation of the Soviet built tank portrayed in the movie. I knew it was a T-Sixty-something.
My bad...

I have read just about everything Tom Clancy has written and did read that one by him. Unfortunately, it was a few years ago and sometimes my "brain-mounted memory storage system" fails to activate and function properly.

Also, I knew/know that the Marines have such badges (NOT medals, again, that darn B.M.M.S.S.) but I wasn't sure about Army.
Thinking about it now, I do seem to remember a documentary that shows tanks being air-dropped and operated by Army Airborne troops, and so, the T.C. would be an airborne tanker...

As far as DU Vs. M1 armor, I realize now that it is not something to be discussing anywhere that terrorists/enemies could read it...

Again, I apologize.


To all American soldiers, regardless of branch, regardless of rank, regardless of what duties you performed when you are/were in:

Thank you.

I mean it...

Many is the time I see some elderly gentleman with a WW2 veteran hat on his head, and I go up and ask if I can shake his hand for his service to this country. Several years ago I did this and the guy just stammered out that it wasn't any big deal that he was the driver of an L.S.T. on D-day...
I almost cried from his humility. He may have been a bent-backed and stoop-shouldered senior member of AARP, but his grip was like a vise and his eyes were steel...
And for what it's worth, I believed him wholeheartedly.
I've met a few "FAKE" warriors in my day and they are relatively easy to spot.

Please note: I am NOT a "FAKE" warrior. I don't dress in BDU's and tout false exploits as a Bona-fide medal-of-honor-winning Ex-Navy SEAL.


Two weeks ago, I had the distinct pleasure to shake the hand of a returning Guardsman, a kid whose brother I went to high school with.
He seemed kind of weirded out by it, but he's too young to remember me and his brother in full camo shooting BB's at each other and recreating the exploits of medal-winning special forces units...

jim

 

[effengee]

My Apologies!!!

oops double-posted