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Any tips on canning venison?....

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Rembrandt, Jan 6, 2013.

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  1. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    YOu are wasting your time. He is on the leading edge of research beecause of his job working with boilers and his buddy the professor. Nevermind that this is ancient technology that has been hashed over for years.

    Some people are just too smart for thier own good.
     
  2. Screamin'Eagle

    Screamin'Eagle Member

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    Agreed.
     
  3. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    I've canned beef chunks before. You need a pressure canner to do it safely. You have to get the internal temperature up to 250° to kill botulism spores, and you can't get there at atmospheric pressure.

    I believe the Ball Blue Book goes into the details.

    I cut the meat up like stew meat, browned it, then packed into canning jars. Filled the jars to the prescribed level with beef bouillon, then processed it for... I think it was 80 minutes for pint jars. That was a few years ago, I still have at least one jar in the pantry.
     
  4. woodguru

    woodguru Member

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    You are looking at being a statistic here, improperly canned meat is flat not worth taking chances or shortcuts with.

    I think you may be talking about the musk glands, not lymph nodes.

    All the stories about how deadly canning can be apply to meat, it's no joke.
     
  5. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    I grew up eating home canned meat and veggies. My mom had a system of everytime she opened a jar of something, she'd have my dad taste it. If he said it tasted okay, she felt safe to feed it to our large family. Altho my ma's system worked for her, and she never poisoned any of us, I and most experts on the subject wouldn't recommend to others on the internet to use it. Since the National Center for Home Preservation advises against processing canned meat in the oven, I gotta concur.

    We cold pack venison with all fat and tendons removed to within one inch of the top of the jar, add a teaspoon of seasoned salt and a slice of onion. Strips for fajitas get Mexican seasoning. We then process them according to the directions depending on the jar size. While we can Tomatoes and make jam via the waterbath method, everything else goes into the pressure canner. Have yet to find ANY directions for canning meat that does not clearly state to only do it in a pressure canner.
     
  6. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    Well, I've done a lot of looking. The pressure canning thing is right, with certain caveats

    I looked at the link in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUsTYfdm1fE. What I was having a real hard time with was the temp. Pressure canning at 10# is little better than the oven, if any better. It appears that it is inadequate.
    This appears correct. Internal temperature of the product needs to reach 252 degrees. That's why the pressure canner needs to be 15# minimum.

    Also, it appears that anyone at altitudes in excess of maybe 2,500 feet need more than 15#. I have no idea how high home canners go in terms of pressure.
    This can be reached (barely) with 15#. Answers the question.

    This incorrect, at least for botulism. Botulism grows in anaerobic (without air) conditions in pH of above 4.6, which is why some vegetables/fruits can be canned via water bath.

    Looks like my supply is going to have to be reworked. Also gonna get one of the Ball canning books.

    Thanks guys.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2013
  7. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    I'm glad you decided that. It may have seemed some of us were piling it on you hard, myself included, but we werent doing it to be mean. This is an online community and as such we tend to care about those that come here, well most that come here, lol. I, for one, would have felt horrible if something happened to you or your loved ones from eating improperly canned meat, especially if we hadnt tried to stop you.
     
  8. blarby

    blarby Member

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    Louis pasteur disproved spontaneous generation centuries ago.

    Stop it.


    Glad we turned ya on to the right path, 'neck. Enjoy the process, and don't rush it.

    One thing of note on your new canning experience :

    A little over pressure surely won't ruin your stores.

    A few minutes of under-pressure certainly can.

    It can be somewhat difficult to get exactly "x" #'s of pressure without a really good stove... when in doubt, a # over or even 3 or 4 isn't going to hurt ya- but having it drop under that pressure during your timed cycle will.

    If the pressure drops during your timed cycle- do as the BBBible says- just have a big dinner that night. You can attempt ro re-can the contents immediately, but whats left in the jar is going to essentially be mush from the overcooking.


    Good luck, and happy stores !
     
  9. Husker_Fan

    Husker_Fan Member

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    Just read this thread and wow. I'll leave it at that and comment on the OP.

    I raw pack in hot jars and pressure can according to the instructions that came with my canner. Canning makes the toughest cuts fork tender and very tasty. I put it into stirfry, soups, stews, stroganoff, and just about anything else that calls for stew meet. It's alsp great in sandwiches like french dips, cheese steaks, or even shredded and mixed with BBQ sauce.

    I started canning venison about three years ago, and it is great for freeing up freezer space. I now make stock from turkey after thanks giving or chicken if we roast one and can that too. It's great.
     
  10. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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  11. rgwalt

    rgwalt Member

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    Redneck 2-

    While you make an excellent point about the temperature inside a pressure cooker being approximately equal to that of an oven, you are forgetting one crucial aspect of why pressure canning is superior to heating in the oven at 220F. The key is that when you heat in the oven, the liquid (water) in and around the meat doesn't rise above the normal boiling point of water (212F). You can raise this boiling point by adding salt, but all the same, the meat won't reach the temperature inside of the oven until the water is all boiled away. By that time it is the consistency of leather / jerky. In fact, you could set the oven to 450F, and as long as there was liquid present, it wouldn't rise above the boiling point of water at atmospheric pressure.

    The pressure cooker actually raises the boiling point of the water instead of simply surrounding the water and meat in a higher temperature environment. This provides the advantage of cooking the meat faster due to the higher temperature. More importantly though, the water itself is at a higher temperature than can be achieved at atmospheric pressure. Therefore the meat and water can be raised to a higher temperature (say 250F) than could ever be achieved in an oven.

    These elevated temperatures actually "sterilize" the meat, liquid, jar, etc. It is this sterilization, above anything else such as "driving out air" that is KEY to keeping the meat safe to store and consume at room temperature. It is the same process that the food industry uses to can tuna, chicken, ham, spam, etc. The canning is conducted under pressure to raise the boiling point of water not just to cook the food, but to sterilize bacteria and fungi that might otherwise survive being boiled at room temperature. Botulism bacteria, specifically, can survive boiling at room temperature (I believe). The reason that tomatoes and fruit jams are not canned under pressure (but rather in boiling water) is that these foods tend to be acidic. The acid in the food is enough to prevent bacteria from thriving.

    Anyway, I hope this helps clear up the debate. I do respect your experience, and the experience of your friends. However, I also work in the chemical industry and have an engineering education, and this is an important topic that is worth exploring, debating, educating, and clearing up any misconceptions. I think meat canning is a great idea to provide a ready stock of good quality, nutritious protein that does not require refrigeration.
     
  12. Lloyd Smale

    Lloyd Smale Member

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    great post rgwalt
     
  13. Screamin'Eagle

    Screamin'Eagle Member

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    blarby:

    Since the lowest point in the jar is meat, and microorganisms are everywhere, the microorganisms would be on the meat and contaminate it if allowed to grow. You kill them by evacuating all the air and heating them to a temperature high enough to kill them.

    And if this is all hogwash, how bout you put your cubed venison in a flask with an S-bend neck and let it sit in your cellar for a year. Then go ahead and eat it and report back if you're still alive.

    Thanks for posting rgwalt!
     
  14. Utryme

    Utryme Member

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    There is some truth in most of the answers.

    I'm the guy that canned for Redneck. The last hour of canning was at 240'f. That is high enough to boil the meat in the jar, create steam, remove the air via the top seal and according to the USDA, kill everything. While this is not the preferred method, it is how it was done.

    The primary reason oven canning is not preferred is the explosion issue, not food safety. It is easier to do large batches, but also easier to make mistakes, hence I did a lot of research once I was locked into the oven thing (another story).

    I would not have done it this way if I wasn't certain! Per the USDA. "the toxin is sensitive to heat and can be destroyed if the food in question is boiled for 10 minutes (longer at high altitudes)." If you know of a better source, let me know.

    I watched all jars boil.
     
  15. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    That's not good enough. The problem is, there is no toxin in the jars during processing to destroy, the toxin develops later during storage. They are saying you can boil questionable stuff just before serving for 10 minutes to make it safe.

    You boil the food during processing and that kills all the bacteria. If there are any Clostridium spores in the food (and there probably aren't) they survive and can sprout later in the jars during storage and poison the contents. You have to heat them to 240 degrees (I said 250 the other day, but I misspoke) and you can't do that in an oven.
     
  16. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Pressure can at 15 pounds for 90 uninterrupted minutes. Period. Water bath or oven canning meat is a great way to kill your friend and his family. Not now, but six months later when the dormant botulinum has had a chance to multiply.

    This means nothing. Nothing at all. The most dangerous food borne organisms can survive temperatures above 212 for hours.

    From the Agricultural Extension Service at the University of Tennessee:

    "...food inside a canning jar in the oven can be heated no higher than the boiling point of water (212 degress F at sea level) regardless of how high the air temperature is inside the oven. This is a basic law of physics."
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  17. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    AMEN!

    Nearly every year i hear about someone getting extremely sick or dieing from water bathing meat... It just gives canning a bad name!!

    DM
     
  18. zorro45

    zorro45 Member

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    I have canned a lot of stuff, but only water bath for high acid, high sugar or high salt foods. Pressure canning of meat is done to kill the spores of the bacterium which causes botulism. It is tasteless, and does not show anything wrong with the contents to the naked eye. If you eat it you, your family, and any people you give it away to may die. It is critical to follow the instructions in the Blue Book to the letter and to make appropriate adjustments for altitude. Unfortunately my last 10 seasons of deer hunting, while being fun, did not result in the problem of "what to do with the meat." For me, it isn't worth the risk, if I ever did get a deer I would get a cheap freezer from Sears and use that.

    http://www.pickyourown.org/botulism.htm
     
  19. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    Simply put, you are wrong. There is more than enough out there for you to read all about, if you choose to stick your head in the sand and ignore it, its on you. Why you would risk it is beyond me.
     
  20. Wylie1

    Wylie1 Member

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    Don't do it, just get Game Saver bags and a good machine to seal them up.
     
  21. Lloyd Smale

    Lloyd Smale Member

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  22. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Don't have to find a better source, as per the USDA...... "Canning meat in the oven is not safe, nor is it recommended".:rolleyes:






    +1. Folks here are not criticizing you, they are trying to save your and the lives of those you are willing to put at risk.
     
  23. blarby

    blarby Member

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    Correct.

    I dun know why there is an attempt to subvert a known process that works well with one that is dangerous on many levels.

    A reloader and fellow THR hero at THR's sig line says it all :

    "Never underestimate the amount of toil and angst a cheap SOB will put himself thru to save 50 cents." Thanks, don.

    In this case- that toil and angst is watching the terrified 24-48 hour period of spasms and seizures, caused by your family dying from botulism poisoning because you were too cheap to buy a $50 pressure canner. You won't have to wonder, or swear that you woud take the pain for them though- you'll be right there beside them in the half-paralyzed fetal position, twitching.

    Lets review those last few days of clutching to life for a moment, shall we......

    Botulism
    Last reviewed: August 15, 2012.

    Botulism is a rare but serious illness caused by Clostridium botulinum bacteria. The bacteria may enter the body through wounds, or they may live in improperly canned or preserved food.

    Causes, incidence, and risk factors

    Clostridium botulinum is found in soil and untreated water throughout the world. It produces spores that survive in improperly preserved or canned food, where they produce toxin. When eaten, even tiny amounts of this toxin can lead to severe poisoning.

    The foods most commonly contaminated are home-canned vegetables, cured pork and ham, smoked or raw fish, and honey or corn syrup. Botulism may also occur if the bacteria enter open wounds and produce toxins there.

    Infant botulism occurs when a baby eats spores and the bacteria grow in the baby's gastrointestinal tract. The most common cause of infant botulism is eating honey or corn syrup.

    Clostridium botulinum can be found normally in the stool of some infants.

    About 110 cases of botulism occur in the U.S. per year. Most of the cases are in infants.

    Symptoms

    Symptoms usually appear 8 - 36 hours after you eat contaminated food. There is NO fever with this infection.

    In adults, symptoms may include:

    Abdominal cramps

    Breathing difficulty that may lead to respiratory failure

    Difficulty swallowing and speaking

    Double vision

    Nausea

    Vomiting

    Weakness with paralysis (equal on both sides of the body)

    Symptoms in infants may include:

    Constipation

    Drooling

    Poor feeding and weak sucking

    Respiratory distress

    Weak cry

    Weakness, loss of muscle tone

    Signs and tests

    The health care provider will perform a physical exam. There may be signs of:

    Absent or decreased deep tendon reflexes

    Absent or decreased gag reflex

    Eyelid drooping

    Loss of muscle function/feeling

    Paralyzed bowel

    Speech impairment

    Urine retention with inability to urinate

    Blood tests can be done to identify the toxin. A stool culture may also be ordered. Lab tests can be done on the suspected food to confirm botulism.

    Treatment

    You will medicine to fight the bacteria, called botulinus antitoxin.

    You will have to stay in the hospital if you have breathing trouble. A tube may be inserted through the nose or mouth into the windpipe to provide an airway for oxygen. You may need a breathing machine.

    Patients who have trouble swallowing may be given fluids through a vein (by IV). A feeding tube may be inserted.

    Health care providers must tell state health authorities or the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention about patients with botulism, so that the contaminated food can be removed from stores.

    Some people are given antibiotics, but they may not always help.



    Heres the problem, oven canner :

    You are boiling it.

    Period. Thats it- boiling. At surface pressure- 212 degrees IS THE HOTTEST THAT WATER WILL GET, BEFORE IT TURNS INTO A GAS AND ESCAPES THE JAR. WATCHING WATER BOILING IS WATCHING THE WATER THAT WAS 212 DEGREES ESCAPE THROUGH THE WATER THAT ISN'T 212 DEGREES.

    THIS TEMPERATURE IS NOT SUFFICIENT TO PREVENT/KILL BOTULISM.

    STOP ATTESTING THAT IT IS, PLEASE.


    The hottest temperature that you can get that liquid to at surface atmo is 212- THATS IT.

    THIS IS WHAT PRESSURE CANNING IS FOR. YOU CAN CHANGE THE POINT AT WHICH WATER BOILS AND EVAPORATES, ALLOWING SUPERHEATED WATER INSIDE THE JARS TO KILL ALL OF THE BACTERIA. THIS DOES NOT, AND CANNOT HAPPEN OUTSIDE OF A PRESSURIZED ENVIRONMENT. PLEASE STOP INSISTING YOU CAN DEFEAT PHYSICS IN YOUR OVEN.


    I'm sorry, this one has gone on for too long, and too far. My patience has finally expired- and for that, I do apologize.

    Get the damn BBBible before we read about your family in the news, and get to deal with people who want to prevent mass deaths by banning canning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  24. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    NOW, if anyone get's sick/dies, and "they" are tracked to this thread, (yes you CAN be tracked back to this thread) guess who will go to jail for a looooong time??

    NO one who has read this thread can plead ignorance...

    DM
     
  25. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    Google your question. There is plenty of information available. Plus, a video on U-Tube on the "How to." for canning.
     
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