Anybody Have XM8 Update?

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J

JWH

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I last posted on the XM8 this past January of 2004, and I agreed to wait and see how the thing tested out. Does anybody have the inside scoop on whether the XM8 is living up to it's hype? Is it truly getting a 15,000 round MTBF or whatever it was supposed to have?

John

--------------------
Grendelicious, Baby!
www.65grendel.com
 
If your post wasn't so sarcastic, I would have thought it to be a troll. Why is it that the vast majority of people who handle and fire the XM8 absolutely love it? Maybe there's something you're missing.

BTW, where did you get the 15,000 round MTBF figure?
 
XM8.jpg
 
I've not fired the XM8 yet. Have put somewhere around three or four thousand rounds through a G36. Regarding the G36...

The handle is a little goofy looking, but it works just fine. The dual optics system used in the Bundeswehr version are absolutely wonderful. I could do 250 meter shots as quickly as I could pull the trigger and didn't miss once. The charging handle takes some getting used to, it's not bad by any means. Just takes some getting used to.

I've never seen a G36 have a single problem, ever. Granted, I only worked with new mags. I love that the HK mags can clip together in series, it's rather handy. With only minor practice, one can change mags in a second. Little recoil, very controllable on even full auto.

My only real grip is the caliber. I'm sorry, but I'm not a 5.56 fan.
 
Takes them 35 years to get the stupid carrying handle off the M16, optics where they need to be, and what do they go and test? A rifle with a fricking non-used carrying handle! (with optics up high).
 
Reading the fine book, "Shots Fired in Anger," by Lt. Col John B. George, I was struck by comments the author made. He stated that the sling was essentially useless. He complained that the M-1 Garand was too fat at the balance point. He said that soldiers tended to carry the gun without a sling at the center of gravity and at the ready. He had worlds of praise for carrying handles.

Taken in todays context, it is still a nice feature and does tripple duty on the XM-8. Let me explain. First, it is a carrying handle. Second, it is a protector for the charging handle. Finally, it serves as a sighting rib for snap/point shooting much like a shotgun. It gives the shooter a fixed, visual reference when they are not looking directly at the gun to facilitate faster target acquisition and therefore speed up that critical first shot.

Of course, John George probably didn't concieve of a tactical sling that allowed both hands free and still kept the gun at the ready. That might offset the utility of the carrying handle somewhat.
 
Badger Arms, I was not being sarcastic. Either you're reading into it, or I expressed myself poorly. I'll take the blame.

Anyway, I'm on the XM8's side, in theory. I like the potential for better reliability. I like the potential for less cleaning. I like the ambidextrous ergonomics. I like the modularity. I like the integrated sight. I'm a little worried about the plastic melting under sustained fire or cracking in extreme cold. I'm not worried about the expense of switching over to it, because we spend money to replace weapons anyway.

I want it to succeed. I just want to make sure it's living up to it's hype, and I sincerely hope it is. But I do want the facts. I want good, solid, scientific tests that conclusively show it's better than what we have. That's fair enough, isn't it?

John

P.S. And I want it in 6.5 Grendel!
 
I apologize for the tone of my post. BTW, I'm confused. How many screen names to you have? I'm assuming you're the same person who posted the first time.

As for the frame cracking, I can tell you it was pretty darned cold when I shot the G36 and it didn't crack. As for the frame melting, I seriously doubt that's a big issue or we would have heard about the Spanish and German armies melting all their guns down. We tend to underestimate the resiliance of modern composites because of the 'plastic' stigma. Look how long it took us to accept the glock!
 
As for the frame melting, I seriously doubt that's a big issue or we would have heard about the Spanish and German armies melting all their guns down.
Click to expand...

Actually melting issues with both the G36 and the XM8 have been reported and been topics of discussion at THR.
 
Badger Arms, yeah, sorry about the screen-name confusion. I've got a computer both at work and at home and they make you sign up differently on both, and I originally signed up as JWH, but then became hyped on the 6.5 Grendel and called myself Grendelizer. I'll try to keep it all straight!

Good point about use of modern polymers in weapons such as the Glock (I've got a G32 ;-). Can we assume anything that'll melt the XM8 will melt the handguards on an M16?

My main point is that I do NOT have a knee-jerk reaction against the XM8. I'm hoping we get something new with the reliability of the AK and the accuracy, ergonomics, and modularity of the AR. If I have a knee-jerk reaction against anything, it's against the direct-gas system of the M16. However, I have to admit that people I respect have tried hard to convince me that reliability is no longer an issue with the M16. I know I should believe them, but I foolishly remain skeptical. (And nobody seems to have or know of the results of rigorous, scientific reliability testing on the M16. I suggested something as simple as taking 10, or 100!, samples right from the factory, prepping them, and shooting a semi-trailer load of ammo through them to get an average for MTBF. Then low-crawl and roll with them through mud or sand and test again!)

My second main point is that even though I "believe" the XM8 to be an advancement, I owe it to myself to keep my enthusiasm in check and soberly accept the results of fair testing. If it truly ain't better, I must, in intellectual honesty, let it go.

So I'm hoping someone has the inside story on how it's really doing in testing, that's all. The link to AR15.com and an actual tester's report was great. That's what I'm looking for. The guy says he fired 400+ rounds with no jams. Good, but not scientifically conclusive, of course. Ultimately, will the government release the results of its testing, or can we get a "leak" from an insider?

John
 
Andrew, I didn't really mean for this to turn into a debate, there are plenty of other threads for that. However, the best response I can make to your point is that we upgraded from the M60 MG to the M240 for reasons similar to the XM8: The M240 seemed to offer better reliability and the M60s in inventory were getting old anyway. Other than that, they fired the same cartridge and the M240 didn't really do anything the M60 couldn't do. Of course, my analogy falls apart when you consider the M240 was already a proven system. Perhaps, following that logic, we should take the Swiss guy's advice and adopt the SIG550? ;-)

My point is that we have, in the past, upgraded to new weapons even if they didn't represent a quantum leap.

I'm not ready to strenuously argue for the XM8, anyway. I'm leaning toward it, but I, myself, need more data on how it's performing before I'll jump in the ring for it.

John
 
I am not drinking the coolaid yet, but it's starting to look pretty good. I'd like some extended trials with the 'new and improved' version that HK says they are bringing out. Particularly, I would like to see a few pre-production runs make it to the field in locations like Fort Wainwright in Fairbanks, Alaska and perhaps a few tours in the desert. Give the Marines the guns and let them crawl around warships. Let Basic trainees fire the gun side-by-side with the M-16 and see who likes what part of which gun better.
 
I would rather have the new H&K replacement piston upper for the M16, and in 6.8mm :)


Nobody ever, every uses the carrying handle on the M16. It's called the "bugout handle" and if you're seen using it, you can get seriously chewed out. Carry the rifle slung or at port arms, etc low ready..... that's the only way I've ever seen them carried.
 
That's just bunk. People use the carry handles all the time. The fact that I just used mine disproves your point. Carrying your gun at port arms is just fine for parades, but isn't very useful if you have a machette in the other hand. What if you have to carry five or ten guns around?
 
I think this is pretty good idea in concept. Let's see how it works out in practice though.

The XM8 in the picture above looks great for CQB. Almost reminds me of the M1 carbine, nice and compact, more power than a pistol.

I think the modular concept is nice too. Since everyone in a unit would have a rifle based on the same platform, parts interchangibilty shouldn't be a problem.

I still have doubts about 5.56, but that is for those in the military to decide. As a civilain round I think it is fine. Not my #1 choice, but it's fine. I think it is fine too for most LEOs.

I.G.B.
 
they already do. the m-16 is already modular, and the m-16 is still being produced. it would cost less to bring every rifle up to the M4/M-16A4 standards and junk the worn out bits than it would to buy new g36s
 
I still have doubts about 5.56, but that is for those in the military to decide. As a civilain round I think it is fine. Not my #1 choice, but it's fine. I think it is fine too for most LEOs.
Click to expand...
The .223 out of a 16" barrel is just fine with a hollowpoint, soft point, or any such expanding bullet. They are absolutely devastating on target. But when you put a full-metal-jacket bullet through a 14.5" barrel, you get spotty stopping power on many human targets. I'd prefer the 6.5 Grendal myself.
 
Badger

That is exactly my point. The military will never go to using expanding ammo, except in the cases of certain spec ops groups.

Police and civilians can use that ammo all they want, not to mention the closer engagement ranges that we civilians and that the police also have.

I have never even heard of a police sharpshooter having to take a shot at 200+ yards. The last time I have heard of a Portland (nearest city to me) officer having to use a rifle, it was a AR, using 5.56, and a distance of under 20 yards. One shot to the head.

I can't imagine having to take a shot over 25 yards in defense, except in the most exteme cases.

Honestly, unless there is some sort of riot situation where the rioters are using firearms or molotov cockails, I can't imaging needing to shoot more than a few yards.

Andrew,

Isn't there going to be a version of the XM8 operating in the SAW role? If so, that could replace the 249 to make logistics and supply easier.

Maybe I am wrong on that, but I thought they were going to do a SAW version.

I.G.B.
 
Cool, but I think it needs at least a 16" barrel, 18-20" preferable or a different caliber before being issued.

From what I can gather, the XM-8 will almost definetly replace the M-16.
 
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