Anyone else change their opinion of the 9mm lately?

[johnson_n]

Why do you suppose SWAT teams all over the country are going back to the .45?

Why don't you tell us? And link to sources. Maybe they shoot better with 1911's and that's the caliber it was made for.

Pick a platform you shoot best with and practice often.

 

[Tom Krein]

A pistol is a compromise. Adding a second compromise on top of the initial one such as a .35 caliber projectile instead of a .45 caliber one just doesn't make sense to me. I carry a .45 ccw that holds eleven rounds and is as small as most 9s. Yes, shot placement is vital to stopping an assailant, that's why I shoot over a hundred rounds a week with my ccw pistol, and finish up with full power defense loads at each practice. If I could, I'd pack a 12ga but that's not possible so I "compromise" and carry a .45

I tend to agree with you. Although I wouldn't feel under gunned with a 9mm I personally carry a Glock 20 as my EDC piece.

WHY do you limit yourself to the .45 acp, in the 1911?? When you could have 15 rounds of hot 10mm on tap??

Just so you know, I am kidding with tongue in check. I happen to really like the 1911 in .45 acp...

Tom

 

[M4inCA]

Pick a platform you shoot best with and practice often

Practice, practice, practice!!!

When SHTF you will sink to the lowest level of performance.

So if you're comfortable with a 9mm and practice a LOT with the 9mm, you will be a good shot with the 9mm.

Same goes for any weapon.

Round count is not a substitute for training.

 

[KBintheSLC]

There is nothing wrong with the 9mm cartridge... especially with good modern expanding ammo. Many of the highly publicized failures of the 9mm were due to LEO's using either FMJ's or standard pressure 147gr JHP's... which failed to expand due to the low velocity. Also, military failures with this caliber are a result of our soldiers being forced to use only FMJ in combat. In such a case, the 45 acp is a better choice.

Handguns are not miracle workers... even in larger calibers. Shot placement is key. I do however feel well defended with my Glock 26 and 11 rounds of 124 gr Golden Saber +P in there.

Now if soft body armor is involved... thats another story. I would love to get a SA FiveSeven for such an occasion.

 

[The Bushmaster]

But just barely...I prefer to carry a .357 magnum, but in the summer I can't hide it well enough so I carry a compact 9mm X 19...

 

[Tom Krein]

But just barely...I prefer to carry a .357 magnum,

Seriously...??

They are both the same diameter.

Remington rates their 9mm 124 grain Golden Saber bullet @ 1125 fps.

Remington rates their .357 125 grain Golder Saber bullet @ 1220 fps.

If you consider the 9mm just barely adequate you might want to get something other than a .357 mag to carry....

IF the .357 mag is such a good man stopper and the tests clearly show this then the 9mm should be considered at least as good if not better due to increased mag capacity!!

Tom

 

[mr.72]

Tom Krein, how are we supposed to have a caliber war if you insist on throwing facts into the mix! These arguments are made upon the force of emotion and strong opinion.

 

[DMK]

I have always felt that 9mm HPs would do the job, but I prefer to hedge my bets with something a little bigger if I have the opportunity. I have no problems shooting my 40S&W, 45ACP or 357Mag guns, so those would be my first choices and are situated where they would be depending on where I am.

 

[DMK]

If you consider the 9mm just barely adequate you might want to get something other than a .357 mag to carry..

Hmm... that depends on the ammo you are comparing. Some factory 357 is underloaded way below its potential. Caveat Emptor


9mm (+P) 115gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1300 fps 431 ft. lbs.

9mm (+P) 124gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1225 fps 413 ft. lbs.

357 125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)

357 158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.)

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

 

[Halo]

For some reason this debate is virtually non-existent in Europe, where the 9mm has been pretty much universally accepted as an adequate pistol cartridge for 100 years now. I guess they don't read enough gun magazines over there!

I doubt there are many instances of 9mm failure where, all other things being equal, another pistol round would have succeeded.

 

[JBP55]

Forty years ago when I shot .357 Mag. you could not sell me on a 9mm. With the improvements in ammunition in recent years I like 9mm and above for defensive purposes. In 9mm I like Ranger T, HST, GD and GS ammo.

 

[Dr_2_B]

Notable that over 90% believe the 9mm is enough. I wouldn't have expected the numbers to come back that high.

 

[DWARREN123]

I believe the 9mm round is smaller in diameter than my 40 S&W rounds!

 

[Tom Krein]

DMK, I won't argue that the .357 mag can be loaded hotter than a hot 9mm... I would quickly loose that argument!

The .357 mag can be turned into a real power house by the new ammo makers like buffalo bore and double tap! There is no doubt about that at all.


My argument is that the reputation of the .357 mag as a stopper was not made using the hotter .357 mag loads, but the standard velocity rounds out of a 4"-6" wheel gun.

With the proper ammo you greatly diminish, if not eliminate the problem of over penetration. You also usually can get more rounds in a flatter more easily concealable package.

Just so I am not mis-understood, I am a LONG time wheel gun fan and a long time big bore fanatic. I am not saying don't shoot a bigger caliber handgun if you feel up to it, or want to. Just don't assume that you are better armed and look down your nose at someone using a 9mm!! They are not under armed.

The 9mm WITH the new +p ammo and proper bullets is a serious self defense round that has many advantages over the larger, and more powerful rounds!

Some of those advantages are smaller overall size, smaller grip diameter for those with smaller hands, quicker shot to shot recovery times, more capacity, and last but not least practice and self defense ammo are significantly cheaper.

Tom

 

[R.W.Dale]

let's keep it real here

 

[W.E.G.]

Marksmanship counts for more than caliber.

Unless you are made of money, you will probably practice more with the 9.

 

[platform]

I think 9mm is really good for deep concealed carry guns.
And this is the criteria that is much more important then
recoil or magazine capacity.

So according to my statement above the only
acceptable 9mm guns are single stack small polimer frames
(or may be STI LS9 or S&W 3913 (SIG 239 is too big) )


If you can carry larger gun like say SIG 226 or CZ-75 or
even Glock 19
there is no reason to have them in 9mm
they should be in .40 S&W (or 10mm )





Now ... if only wear shirt tucked in most/all of the year
and after work like to run/exersize (and still cary)
I think small frame single stack 9mm are excellent.

 

[gym]

I just started carrying a 9mm, the main reason is the kel-tek PF-9, it has more punch than my 38,or my ppk's that I carried for 25 years up North. After 60, you notice the difference in weight, I would rather have my Glock 45, but the weight of a clip full of 45's is a lot heavier than a clip of 9's. And the 9mm commanded more respect than a 38 or a 380. I just picked up a double pack of Remington 115gr JHP's and that alone was a big improvement over the 147 gr rounds. The gun just feels better at the lighter weight.

 

[45ACPUSER]

Quit worrying about what other people think! The ammo companies have refined bullets to have very good expansion qualities.....Win/Fed/CCI buy quality ammo, and above all else get quality training! Then practice practice practice!

 

[The Bushmaster]

Tom Krein...From a 3.3" barrel a 124 grain JHP 9mm X 19 moves at just over 1000 fps if you're lucky. From a 2 1/2" barrel a 140 grain SJHP (softer nose) .357 magnum is moving at 1100 fps (from a 4" barrel 1200 fps) and is a much better preforming bullet. These stats are from my chronograph and not from someone else's book.

As said...Bullet placement is all important. I hand load so practice ammunition is no problem with either 9mm X 19 and .357 magnum. Incidently...I have noticed that the amount of dirt kicked up by the 9mm X 19 (3.9" barrel) is nowhere near as much as the that kicked up by the .357 magnum (2 1/2" barrel)...Granted. Not much of a test, but does give some idea of impact. Not to mention the damage to my back stop. Unfortunately I can't carry a 12" barreled 9mm X 19 to get the needed speed as the .357 magnum gives you with a much shorter barrel...

 

[BlindJustice]

In the late 1970s/early 1980s, I had a Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP - read a lot of Jeff Cooper, SKeeter, Bill Jordan and other gun writers of the
Days gone by. I also picked up a Browning Hi Power - the version with the
first factory adj. sights where the rear sight rode high and looked kinda added on. Anyway, shooting it I knew the BHP was a good design but just wasn't
impressed with 9MM and it only liked Rem 115 gr. JHPs. Being early in raising the family, when I got squeezed for cash, sold the BHP.

I know that bullet design has improved since then and manufactueres after the initial improvements through the mid-90s, have continued to refine
their designs improving JHP performance and reliability in controlled expansion
even aiming for a velocity window for the velocity the bullet weight and cartridge combo will most likely be loaded for in terms of velocity.

So, as well as picking up a CZ 75B as a range gun for economy because of the rising cost of .45 ACP - 1911 and a S&W 625 - I also wouldn't hesitate to use the CZ 75B for HD/SD and wouldn't feel undergunned.

Randall

 

[Dr_2_B]

For some reason this debate is virtually non-existent in Europe, where the 9mm has been pretty much universally accepted as an adequate pistol cartridge for 100 years now.

Halo, it's gonna sound like I'm arguing against my own point here, but the only argument I can see against this is that our American BGs are bigger than the European ones. I don't have the stats for this like I should, but we've become so much more obese here over the last 30 years that I think it's possible we need something more here. Got any thoughts?

 

[lazyeye]

By the numbers in collected by Morgue Monster Evan Marshall and others, 9mm is 85-90% effective in one shot stops in modern loadings with torso shot placement. Granted the "one shot stop" is a measurement of round effectiveness, not a defense philosophy.
At some point i may carry a different caliber, but it probably won't be because I doubt the tiny 9.

 

[1BLINDREF]

I think 9mm is the lowest of calibers adequate enough to bet my life on.

I prefer a .40 or .45, but sometimes it's just easier to carry a 9mm.

 

[steelyblue]

I would rather have a 45, but my wallet sure like 9mm better at the range. I would not feel outgunned with a my 9mm Kimber, though. Either caliber can stop the BG if the shooter does their part. The right ammo makes a difference in 9mm, I believe.