Anyone know of a .380 sa/da that isn't blowback?

[Good Ol' Boy]

MedWheeler I was just kidding with her, but you are absolutely right.

Credit card alert for about $900! Dang that's the absolute max limit we agreed on.

That'll teach you to call her old fashioned lol!

Even though I haven't contributed anything to this thread I have been following along. I'll be interested to see what she picked.

 

[walnut1704]

Looking around the net, I found the Chiappa MC14. It is a double action available in .380 and 9mm, looks bigger than a pocket pistol, and if its the same in both calibers, would be a locked breach design. The only downside is the fact that Chiappa seems to have a spotty reputation for quality.

I have one of these. It says all over the internet it's a locked-breech, but it's not. It's a blowback. It is a very well made gun, quite well finished, and uses Beretta 84 mags and grips. It's a closed slide knock-off version of the Beretta 84. Made by Girsan and same as the Zenith.

 

[zaitcev]

The baby Rock is pretty much the exact same as the Browning 1911-380. They are both copies of the older Llamma IIIA which is a scaled down 1911.

The Baby Rock and 1911-380 are not at all similar. Baby Rock does look like a copy of Llama, but Browning is a clean-sheet adaptation of their 1911-22 for a centerfire cartridge. This is why Browning is recoil-operated and Baby Rock is a blowback gun. Also, the grip angle on the Baby Rock is taken from Llama, while the Browning scaled down a 1911, including the grip.

Finally, the magazine on the Llama and Baby rock copy the follower from 1911, so they activate the bolt stop with the step in the follower. This is very tricky on a .380 round because the bullet tends to touch the stop lever, since it's so stubby. Browning used a trick where the second from the top coil protrudes from the magazine body and activates the slide stop reliably.

 

[entropy]

Anyone know of a .380 sa/da that isn't blowback?
One, but it is DAO. The Taurus .380 Revolver

No slide to rack. Moon clips for fast reload. Small, light. Recoil would be your only possible problem. Round capacity is not much less than most of the .380 autos in the size she wants.

 

[hemiram]

My ex-girlfriend was 95 pounds at a towering 4'10", and she had a lot of problems working the slide on all but one of my guns (Beretta 950BS) until she learned the "push-pull" technique, and then she had no problems. Even on the Beretta 84 she liked the best, due to it being "beautiful". Once she got the technique down, she wanted to shoot all my guns, at least once. She hated my S&W 4006 TSW, but liked the 5906 and even the 4506. She just didn't like .40 much at all. I can't really disagree with that, I recently sold off my last .40 gun and now only have .380(2), 9mm(14), and .45(2).. She didn't mind my .38/357 revolvers with .38 spl in them, and my DW 44 was just too massive for those little hands to use well at all. It was funny to see her try to aim it. I should have grabbed a video of it. Firing it was no problem with .44 SPL in it, it was her holding it up and trying to aim it.

 

[12Bravo20]

The Baby Rock and 1911-380 are not at all similar. Baby Rock does look like a copy of Llama, but Browning is a clean-sheet adaptation of their 1911-22 for a centerfire cartridge. This is why Browning is recoil-operated and Baby Rock is a blowback gun. Also, the grip angle on the Baby Rock is taken from Llama, while the Browning scaled down a 1911, including the grip.

Finally, the magazine on the Llama and Baby rock copy the follower from 1911, so they activate the bolt stop with the step in the follower. This is very tricky on a .380 round because the bullet tends to touch the stop lever, since it's so stubby. Browning used a trick where the second from the top coil protrudes from the magazine body and activates the slide stop reliably.

The original Llamma 380 was also a lock breach pistol. They later changed it to blowback. I don’t remember off hand the date on the change. And it was a scaled down version of a 1911

 

[larryh1108]

I was also going to suggest the Llama .32 or .380, especially the locked breech .380 version. However, no decocker but it does have the thumb safety for cocked and locked and the grip safety. The 1911 manual of arms is also quite classy.

 

[zaitcev]

The original Llamma 380 was also a lock breach pistol. They later changed it to blowback. I don’t remember off hand the date on the change. And it was a scaled down version of a 1911

I don't quite remember how the changeover occured either. The Especiale was locked breech for sure, and MicroMax always blowback. Maybe it's right between III and IIIA.

 

[larryh1108]

In the mid 70s when Llama dropped the Especial lineup, they went from the locked breech .380 to the blow back design. I believe it was a cost saving move since they were in trouble financially. I have both designs and the locked breech is twice the pistol, IMO. It is a true, down sized 1911 design.

 

[zaitcev]

Moon clips for fast reload.

Maybe the 380UL is fast to reload with TK Custom clips, but rounds wobble so much in the factory clips that it makes lining up rounds difficult. And you have to grasp the clip just right, too. In fact, the rounds even point in random directions when clip is just laying on a table:


The little .380 has other dubious properties as well.

The trigger is immensely heavy. It's unbelievable, really. But the gun tends to get light strikes with the Wolff spring kit for the Taurus 85. I know the Mousegun Addict reported success with it, but no go for me. I even removed the lock and filled the cavity with molten lead to make the hammer heavier. It made a marginal improvement, but not enough. I ended going back to the factory mainspring, leaving only Wolff trigger return spring.

If her trigger finger gets tired from working some common DAO guns, she will not be compatible with Taurus 380.

And to top it all, the chamber throats are undersized for common ammunition. So, many types of rounds cannot go all the way in and it jams the cylinder rotation.

 

[entropy]

The one I tried at a local indoor range wasn't any worse than the trigger on my S&W BodyGuard38; you are right about the OEM moon clips, kinda flimsy. I will confess to having shot CBC ammo through it, they are probably made with that in mind.
It didn't impress me enough to trade my Smith in for it, but since the OP wanted a .380 that there were no worries about working the slide, I had to at least mention it.

 

[Kaybee]

Range Report:

The shop we go to has a nice deal where you can rent a few guns with an instructor, and if you buy a gun that day the price of the rental is free, you just pay for ammo.

So we realize she is just going to have to make a compromise because what she wants doesn’t exist. (a quality made and soft shooting compact .380, locked breach very easy to rack, sa/da with great sa, and with decocker).

She revisited the pk380. The one they had was black which is better, the other we looked at was blue and looked like a toy. The gun fit her hand well, perfectly in fact. The slide was very easy to rack. The problem again is still the safety. They were showing her how to operate the gun with snap caps and because of that safety she felt like she was in a constant state of confusion about the status of the gun. The gun does not decock. She really really wanted to like it because it some ways it was the best option, but she just wasn’t comfortable with it.

She tried a revolver. A six shot 4” Ruger that shot .32hr. She absolutely loved shooting the .32hr from that gun. It handled well and felt like a “real” gun. She also liked that she had the option of putting lighter .32s in it or another even more powerful round if she wanted to try it sometime. It really came down to the trigger. She did ok with accuracy and was able to stage it, but after shooting 12 shots her finger hurt like she was going to sprain it and she didn’t want to shoot it anymore. Up at the cabin we usually spend a couple hours so that was the dealbreaker. Also, she said the SA was very nice but didn't like there was no way to automatically lower the hammer once cocked.

She tried a 1911 in 380 that was not a sig. It had a nice wood handle with a gold emblem. Almost bought that one. Ultimately she still doesn’t want cocked and locked but might go back and try 1911 style guns another time to see if she can get used to it. After we pay off the one she bought, that is.

The shop didn’t have the LC380 or the Sig p250c 380 in stock. They did have striker fired 9mm versions of both. The size of them felt about right and if they had the 380 hammer versions in stock they might have been seriously considered.

She played around with a couple blowbacks at the counter and, though some seemed nice, the slide pull was not to her liking so she never even shot any of them.

And what she came home with was….

A Sig Sauer Compact Single Stack 9mm! (model 39?)

After playing around trying to rack the blowbacks she realized she was going to have to make a compromise. So if she was gonna have to deal with the stiff racking of a blowback she might as well get a 9mm. This particular model has all the edges smoothed and there were no controls on the slide so she could get a nice grip on it and it so racking “wasn’t toooo bad”.

The main selling point was the SA trigger. This one has a special short reset trigger that was A+ in her book and completely sold her on the gun. She also liked the position of the decocker even better than her SR22.

She liked the way it looked. It had an air of authority and also the shop gave her a deal on some wood grips for it and are going to install them for free.

She can deal with the overall size. For her this is a large full sized gun.

She said she was shooting reduced power (?) 9mm that were not too bad in recoil. She wanted a 380 but reduced power 9mm is another compromise she can make. If anyone can recommend brands of the lightest shooting 9mm cartridges that would be appreciated.

Besides the racking, the only thing she didn’t like was the DA trigger. Not the pull weight, that’s fine for one shot. It’s that with her small hands in DA, the trigger reach is so far out it created an additional challenge in shooting the DA well, and it also made the transition to SA even more pronounced than in her smaller sr22. Are there any kind of adjustments that can be made to the trigger reach without affecting the pull weight or relieabilty or warrenty of the gun?

Anyway, sorry for the long post! And thanks for the gun recommendations she felt good about having models to ask about and feels proud of buying the gun on her own. We have a few days waiting period before we can take the gun home! Christmas is gonna be early over here, I think we are both excited to get this new pistol I think it sounds really nice. I'm gonna wanna shoot it myself!

 

[gc70]

Congratulations on her choice of a classic SIG P239. While not the smallest gun for on-person carry, its weight helps tame recoil and its size is such that it shoots like a larger gun. One thing she certainly nailed IMO is that there is little difference in recoil between a blowback 380 and a locked breech 9mm in the same size gun.

 

[Triggernosis]

Aha! I knew she'd like the feel of a Sig P232, so she chose it's big brother, the P239. It sounds like she has got her schit together and knows what will work for her - congratulate her on making the choice on her own.
And thank goodness she chose the classy, sexy Sig and not that budtugly Block thingamajig.

 

[mavracer]

Congratulations a P239 is a awesome gun, with the short reset trigger in a Sig the SA is great. They also make a short reach trigger for some models I have one in my 229 not sure if they make one for the 239.
As to ammo my dad is recoil sensitive and I have him shoot std pressure 115s and he has critical defense 115s for social work.

 

[zaitcev]

A Sig Sauer Compact Single Stack 9mm! (model 39?)
...
For her this is a large full sized gun.

When I made my 9mm suggestion, I was thinking about HK P30SK V3, but P239 is absolutely is a solid choice in the class. You only give up 3 rounds capacity.

 

[Kaybee]

hunstman, no ammo but some fancy grips.

 

[huntsman]

When I first made that comment I was under the impression that she was buying a p232, while I like the p232 and used to own one $900. Seemed a bit high for that gun.

I make no apologies for owning my .380’s(BDA,LCP) and truth be told I have full confidence in both to protect my life. So how does she like the 9mm?

 

[C0untZer0]

I have one of these. It says all over the internet it's a locked-breech, but it's not. It's a blowback.

Even on Girsan's website they describe the action as "Short Recoil"

http://girsan.com.tr/en/project/mc-14-1

I wonder if they know what Short Recoil really is?

 

[Mark 40]

I became intoxicated by the sight of Beretta Cheetah; didn't listen to the advise about it being hard to rack. Thought the weight would make it a soft shooter. Not. Again I had my blinders on. Was the most regrettable purchase I've ever made.

 

[gc70]

Besides the racking, the only thing she didn’t like was the DA trigger. Not the pull weight, that’s fine for one shot. It’s that with her small hands in DA, the trigger reach is so far out it created an additional challenge in shooting the DA well, and it also made the transition to SA even more pronounced than in her smaller sr22. Are there any kind of adjustments that can be made to the trigger reach without affecting the pull weight or relieabilty or warrenty of the gun?

SIG used to make a short reach trigger for the P239, which was shaped differently than a regular trigger (thinner front-to-back), reducing the distance necessary to reach the trigger. Although those triggers have been discontinued, they can often be found on eBay or the classified sections of various gun boards.

 

[toivo]

hunstman, no ammo but some fancy grips.

Which grips? Inquiring minds want to know!

Excellent choice, BTW. The P239 is one of the most "shootable" pistols I own.

 

[Pilot]

The Llama IIIA used to be locked breech .380, and then they switched it to blowback later in its production. I guess to cut costs. It was essentially a miniature 1911.

 

[Kaybee]

Update, it's already gone. Damn, that didn't last. Last week her brother bought it from her for what she got it for. Before that, she took it to her classes and didn't do well with it, and also when we were out shooting at the ranch she just didn't like it. The main issue is she could rack it with technique but it was kind of uncomfortable for her to do so, and also she is doubling down that she does not like shooting 9mm in a compact gun. Especiall She said she liked it's quality but "never felt like it was her gun" whatever thats supposed to mean.

Anyway, she's happy with her SR22 and is no longer looking for anything else. Especially since her class series is over. I might just leave it alone. BUT for those that are interested, I did notice there are some interesting 380s coming out. If they look nice I am going to suggest them. I know this sounds stupid, but even though we mostly shoot recreationally, I personally would feel more comfortable knowing my wife had more than a rimfire to depend on if anything happened when I am not there. So I am going to keep an eye out for something that might grab her interest.

1. Very promising is The new Taurus TH pistol coming out. I grew up hating on Taurus revolvers and don't know much about their modern pistols, but, if it fits the bill we might give it a look. It seems to check all the boxes. It is a polymer sa/da single stack. They announced the TH in America as a single stack 9mm, but I see that in Brazille it also comes in 380. I don't know if we will but maybe just maybe we will actually see a Taurus TH 380C in America too. A dream come true. It does seem like some manufacturers are catching on that there is a good niche for subcompact 380s and some money to be made from the largest growing group of gun owners in America.

https://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=TH

http://t-series.taurusarmas.com.br/ (Brazille site with the 380)

The rest are all compromises, not sa/da, but worth taking a look at.

2. There's the Ruger LC380 that was recommended above. They only had the LC9 at the store but the LC380 is on the radar. Its a hammer fired DAO but definitely going to be looked at.

3 Smith and Wesson just announced the S&W 380 Shield EZ. hammer fired also but not sa/da but again, wow, it seems like that pistol is designed for someone like my wife so maybe sometime we will take a look at it. ****.. if it seems nice I might just go buy it and surprise her with a gift.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-380-shield-ez-0

4. I've been keeping an eye out for the Sig P250 compact in 380. It's out of production and we would probably have to order it online without holding it which isn't ideal because of my very lovely stubborn picky customer. People online seem to say it was a nice gun with a very smooth double action. I don't have much hope on finding one but if I see one at a gun show Im going to take a look at it.



Side note, just to reiterate what a shame it is the pk380 didn't seem like a quality pistol. They really dropped the ball on this one. I am very surprised because I know Walther has a very good reputation but that pistol felt no frills like they didn't treat it seriously. That weird safety was especially a real dealbreaker.

 

[Zendude]

I predict that the Shield 380 will be the one she will like. I haven't handled one, but it looks like it has some good features.