Anyone know what this is? Help identifying

[ogfarmer]

Hey fellas, Been a lurker for a while enjoying all the great info here.

I need some help trying to figure out what this handgun is for a local FFL. There are no markings on the gun except for the serial number and the F & S for Fire and Safety. No marking under the grips either. The barrel is fluted, He thinks it's a .25. He thinks it's not a FN, Browning, Colt or Astra. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,

 

[MuffinMaster]

I do not know. It's nothing like my browning.

 

[Jim K]

Remove the slide and barrel and check them for proof marks; I think it is probably Spanish, but the proofs would at least show the country of origin.

Jim

 

[ogfarmer]

he said theres no other marking on it.

 

[243winxb]

Look at the photos and descriptions here, you may find one like it. Good luck. http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/wartime-pistols-revolvers/

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

I'll go with JK on the Spanish origin, I think!
I would have to yard it apart myself to believe there were NO proofs at all, but if you say so...

The slide is consistent with pre-war Spanish design, but the grip shape and composition, (They have a late 50's - 60s franzite look) grip angle, and the shape of the grip safety are not.
At least to me.

I will confess I am only familiar with post war Spanish name brand pistols, not their lower priced Spanish competitors.
Strange one to me. Looks like all milled steel, as opposed to a pot metal alloy.
Even the guide ribs on the magazine follower are a new one to me.

Thanks for sharing the photos of a nice looking little .25.
What is he asking?

JT

 

[cerberus65]

Maybe an older version of this?

 

[rcmodel]

The left side photo in the OP might or might not show some sort of logo molded into the circle in the grip?

If there is a logo of any kind, post a better photo of the grip logo.
That will be the smoking gun, if there is one?

rc

 

[Jim K]

The gun has a Spanish look, but there are three oddities. The first is the grip safety pinned at the top rather than the bottom, the second is the flared grip with two stock screws instead of the usual one, and the third is the very prominent magazine release (which resembles that on the Astra 400).

The "fluted barrel" probably refers to the grasping grooves used to turn the barrel for disassembly.

Jim

 

[Bexar]

Looks like it's trying hard as it can be to be a wartime production MAB MODEL A. The MODEL A is without a grip safety so I'm stuck on that aspect.

 

[Jim Watson]

Same deal.
It looks generally Spanish in style, or maybe French Basque; but I do not see the exact type in Triple K or Zhuk.

 

[ogfarmer]

to me it looks like a clone of these

Colt Vest Pocket 1908
MAB Model A type 2

but there is slight differences in each compared to the one we are trying to figure out.

 

[Bexar]

The serial number would indicate I believe that at least that many were made. I tell you OP you've got a lot of good gunnys scratching their heads. I would think the grips and no other identifying features...especially no proofs would indicate it's either a Chinese knock off or a "lunch box" gun from a country where the government does the proofs. Possibly a European theater war souvenir from a factory. Chinese...I'm going to go look.

 

[Jim K]

A serial number won't always indicate that that number were made because serial numbers don't necessarily start at 1. It has been fairly common practice, especially in Europe, to start numbering at some multiple of a thousand, giving the potential customer the feeling that the gun is already a success, not something untried. I suspect that the number 2061 really indicates that there were 61 made (if that), not over two thousand. Likewise number 10001 might indicate the first gun, not the ten thousandth.

Also, some makers, like Walther, started with 1, but kept going with all their guns in the same series. So the PP started around 750,000, which was about the total of all the pistols made by the company up to that time.

Jim

 

[SDC]

Doesn't ring any bells with me, but it definitely has the look of something French or Spanish; if it IS French or Spanish, though, the barrel and frame would be proofed (which may be hidden inside the slide). If you retract the slide so that the safety swings up into the take-down notch in the slide, that'll let you twist the barrel to unlock it from the frame, and then everything should come off the front.

 

[Ron James]

I look at the over all gun and I think Spanish, then I study the slide and something screams Belgium.

 

[JRH6856]

I think Spanish, perhaps with a Spanish copy of a Belgian slide. Wouldn't be the first.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I thought it might be a tear gas pistol at first. I suspect it's Spanish too, but I haven't found the 'quite right' fit.

 

[JRH6856]

So far, the closest I can find is a French MAB Model A, but the lines aren't an exact match. But the MAB may have been the basis for the copy.

Bexar, the MAB A Type II does have a grip safety.

 

[Bexar]

So far, the closest I can find is a French MAB Model A, but the lines aren't an exact match. But the MAB may have been the basis for the copy.

Bexar, the MAB A Type II does have a grip safety.

My betcha is it's a war-time either pre-production or a late war produced pistol that had very limited production. Possibly a spy pistol. The pistol was either a captured pistol or "liberated" from an arsenal somewhere. Nazi Generals were issued 25ACP caliber pistols to keep in a pocket in their trench coats according to my F-I-L who was in Europe during WW2. He told me this over a decade ago when we were looking at his WW2 trophies. He had mentioned the NAZI generals concealed pocket pistol as something he had wanted. The NAZI's could have had a special run made not unlike our General Officer Model Colt .45. Don't know.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I beleive the spanish copied colt and browning designs in the early 1900's. I'm not an expert, and hopefully someone with a little more exact knowledge comments later.... Buy my guess is it is a spanish copy of a colt or browning.

 

[JRH6856]

Everything I have ever read concerning pocket pistols and German generals has said that they were usually issued the Mauser 1934 or HSc, or perhaps the Ortgies. None of which resemble this pistol.

Considering that Spain had a thriving cottage gun making industry that could produce very good copies of just about anything they had a pattern for, a Spanish cottage copy of a MAB Mod A Type II or later still seems like the best bet to me. The lack of roll marks is curious, though.

 

[natman]

My betcha is it's a war-time either pre-production or a late war produced pistol that had very limited production. Possibly a spy pistol. The pistol was either a captured pistol or "liberated" from an arsenal somewhere. Nazi Generals were issued 25ACP caliber pistols to keep in a pocket in their trench coats according to my F-I-L who was in Europe during WW2. He told me this over a decade ago when we were looking at his WW2 trophies. He had mentioned the NAZI generals concealed pocket pistol as something he had wanted. The NAZI's could have had a special run made not unlike our General Officer Model Colt .45. Don't know.

The Nazis were not shy about marking their weapons. If it were Nazi issue it would be covered with German markings, especially if it were issued to General officers.

The Colt 45 Officer's model is a recent development. I suspect you are thinking of the Colt 1908 General Officer model, which was in 380 ACP.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

As I recall multiple sources stated there were so many Spanish gun shops -- literally as small as one or two man operations at tmes -- making small .25 pistols for export, we will never be able to catalog all the different Spanish made pocket pistols.

In other words, we should expect to be puzzled from time to time.

 

[Bexar]

The Nazis were not shy about marking their weapons. If it were Nazi issue it would be covered with German markings, especially if it were issued to General officers.

The Colt 45 Officer's model is a recent development. I suspect you are thinking of the Colt 1908 General Officer model, which was in 380 ACP.

You're right about the 1908 .380 and I understand General Patton carried one.
However...there was a .45 issued to U.S Army generals called the M15. It had features specific to it and there were just over a thousand made. It was made by Rock Island Arsenal and in a Commander configuration.