Anyone suggest a load for 50 Cal accuracy?

[rmkey]

I have a CVA kodiak 50 cal. I wanted maybe foolishly to reproduce a 45-70 equivalent load or more. I started using 405 grain swaged bullets in a MMP sabot and pyrodex RS 80, 90 100 grains. I am using small pistol primers (vari-flame) for ignition and I am using a seasoning patch followed by a dry patch between each shot. 3x9 scope. Actually my hawkin will produce groups just as well with iron sights!

I am switching to 777 and Win 777 209 primers and maybe powerbelt bullets and see if any improvement. I gladly would settle for 2 inch groups. But I really wanted to shoot those massive 405 grainers.

Any suggestions?

(Oh by the way, it is a problem with the load or the gun or the scope. It is not me. Moderate recoil does not bother my shooting. I have many centerfire rifles that shoot sub moa)

 

[Mark whiz]

for the 405 Powerbelts, 90 to 95gr of 2fg 777 will be about as hot as you'll want to push 'em. Make sure you lube the posts on the powerbelts as well, as the cups tend to stick to the bullets at higher powder loads. This will be good for about 1500fps at the muzzle.

From my own experience, I've not been able to get as good of accuarcy with the 405s as I can with the 348s.

 

[Misfire99]

I couldn't get the power belts to shoot in any of my rifles. They seem to be under size for the bore. I do have an experiment ready to try with them though. I paper patched some of them to make them fit tight in the bore. When I get a chance to go to the range I will give them a try. Buffalo bullets work well as do TC Maxi-Balls. I haven't had the chance to get to the range lately but I have some Precision Rifle's bullets, both conical and sabot, that look very promising. Here is a link to them:
http://www.prbullet.com/

If you shoot the conicals make sure you put some lube on them first.

 

[Wildfire]

.50 cal. accuracy

Hey there>
You may have a twist rate issue with the big bullets. The big bullets like a faster twist. I'm not sure just what you have. But It has been my experiance
that the long bullets won't toss good groups with the slower twist like the 1 in 48s.
Also I have tried those pistol primers and they seem to widen groups also.

My "Whites" have a 1 in 24" twist and the handle the long heavy bullets very well. They in turn will not toss the lighter rounds because of that faster twist.
These handle a 480 grain round with extreme accuracy. Recoil can be on the stiff side.
Never found a Power Belt that would shoot from any of my guns either.

 

[rmkey]

Appreciate the comments

My rifle has a 1:28 twist. It is 50 cal and I am shooting 405 grain Montanna swaged bullets with MMP sabots. Maybe I should reduce load to 70 grains of powder and go back to 209's.
The powerbelts in my rifle do not seem undersized but if they are there is a "platinum" powerbelt a 1000th or so larger to compensate. I suppose I will try powerbelts and or 240 grain 44's again. Previously on my first attempt I was not swabbing the bore properly from ignorance with powerbelts at 295 grains. My second attempt I switched to the 45 cal 405's with MMP sabots at 90 grains.
I would get three shots in about 2.5 to 3inches then for no reason at all I get a couple 8 inches away. Extemely frustrating.

 

[Mark whiz]

When you get that extreme flyer with powerbelts you can be pretty sure it was caused by the cup not falling off of the bullet - that problem turns those thing from bullets into kites, flying all over.

I always pretreat powerbelts by twisting, pulling, and replacing the cups several times and adding a lube like bore butter to the post when I put them on right before shooting. The heavier the bullet or the hotter the charge seems to make this problem worse.

I've alwyas found that powerbelts can give "hunting accuracy" (2 to 3" groups), but that is about it. If you are looking for exteme accuracy, try the Hornady SST sabots in 300gr or even better are the bullets made by Precision Rifle ( prbullet.com ). The PR QT bullet line shoot marvelously for me in 300, 350, and 400gr versions - and they are quite lethal on game.

 

[Wildfire]

Accuracy

Hey again .
Accuarcy is my game. Now that you have stated what you want myabe I can help.
With a 1 in 28" twist my gun will touch holes at 100 neters with these bullets.
The 300 SST/ML > The 300 Shock Wave by T/C and the 250 grain Red Hots by Knight. These all touch holes at 100 meters with 80 grains of Pyrodex "P".
And the Remington 209 ML only primer. This is from a scoped Encore and from a bench. These run at 1550 fps on the 300s and around the high 1600s for the 250.
I have tested these to extreme's. The Encore's have a 1 in 28" twist.
Other powders will not do the same groups.
My son and I only hunt with these Encores no mater what deer season we have. I have killed 1 very nice 9 pointer and a miss fit 3 pointer this year. My son dropped an 8 point all with these Red Hots. They expand 100%.....
They do not always exit. We found the 250s will stick in the deer. The 300s blow thru. But they are accurate and kill deer.
The 300 SST/ML is accuarte but we could not get expansion from that round.
We have not killed any deer with the Shock waves yet.
The sabots as mentioned by the other poster are critical for bullet flight and accuraccy. The Power Belts are fussy and do not reliably release that little plastic part and screw up groups. The tighter they fit in the gun the better they shoot. The T/C shock Waves have an easy load Yellow sabot that will not group. The black sabots do. That bullet is made by Hornady for T/C.
When we tested for expansion they did expand in water very well, but most bullets do. The Red Hots are impressive. You can hear the bullet hit the deer.
As I saaid Accuracy is my game and I have spent a lot of time with the Encores. They are hole raggers. The twist rate on your gun should produce good accuracy.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

http://www.prbullet.com/pick.htm

check that out. describes which bullets work best with different twist rates.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/214567/

good discussion on there also

 

[rmkey]

Thanks very much

That is quite a lot of info. I wondered about the base on the powerbelt. The only reason I tried them is because CVA strongly recommends them.
Well, I have plenty of info to get started and I wont quit until I can get a decent group. Actually, I am not a hunter I just like guns and experimenting and getting the best possible groups. I do like to terminate milk jugs full of water though. I have some 300 grain Dead centers so I will start there. Thanks again

 

[Mark whiz]

I've not had as good of luck with the Dead Centers as I've had with the QTs in my Knight, but many swear by the Dead Centers so they are definitely worth a try. The 300gr QTs will cut dime-sized groups out to 75yds or so for me, hard to beat that.

 

[Pancho]

The Powerbelt is just a reinvented minie-ball and though the manufacturer has never said it that expanding plastic skirt can be overpowered just like the lead skirt on the minie. The typical load civil war load for a 58 cal. minie was 60 grains of bp. I can testify to the powerbelts penetration with 80grains of rs pyrodex in that it shot clear through a 4" thick green ash tree at 100 yards. That's saying something. When ever you work up a load for any given rifle, powder and bullet it is always best to work up a load from a known light load up to the amount that the three variables come together with the performance you expect. As it was stated early in this thread some twists just won't shoot some bullets but you'll never find out if you jump in with a large charge.

 

[rmkey]

CVA KODIAK and sabots

I noticed in my manual yesterday that CVA cautions against using any saboted bullet over 300 grains. Why should this be? I slugged my bore and it measures .501 to .502. The orange MMP sabots designed for .458 cal bullets with a bullet seated measures 0.502. A perfect fit.
The twist in 1:28 so why on earth should not a quality bullet (405 grains) and this sabot not group well? Maybe it will yet wih another powder and primer combo.
I am not giving up on my 45-70 or so duplication load but for now I will try Dead Centers and MMP sabots with 250 Hornady XTP and 240 cast.
Then the red hots. Do the 50 conicals (Ultimate 1) work well from Precision Rifle and it appears they have knurled bases requiring lubricant? Or do a sub base sabot since they are 50 Cal.? Again accuracy with a bit of punch is my only concern.

 

[Mark whiz]

I think all of the in-line manufacturers recommend against the heavier bullets. IMHO this is strictly a liability issue. They are afraid someone will load up 150gr of powder behind a 500gr sabot, which may well push the pressure limits of some of the foreign manufactured barrels like those CVA use. I think the Green Mountain barrels that Knight uses are of a higher quality and consistency.

The 1st time I contacted Cecil at PRBullet and told him I had a Knight, his ONLY recommendation for a bullet was the Extreme sabot in 400gr. I also ordered some 350gr and he was like "WHY?????" Personally I wasn't looking forward to shooting the 400gr bullet - but damn if he wasn't right, that bullet shot like nobody's business.

Personally, I feel 100% safe firing the 400gr sabots with 100gr of 2fg 777, 115gr of Pyro RS, or even 125gr of CleanShot,APP, Shockeys, or what ever else it's called. Those loads are about the same pressure-wise, accurate, and have caused me zero problems or concerns.

I haven't shot the Ultimate conical bullets, but I would expect them to perform to PR's standards - which is quite good. I don't remember if they are pre-lubed or not, but you would definitely want to make sure there was some sort of lube on the "textured" sides..............Bore butter would be good. I believe those bullets do not have a concave base, but they do have somewhat of a boattailed base...........so using a lubed wad under the bullet wouldn't be of much help (according to my experiments with wads and conicals). One thing you would want to use with them is a loading rod tip that swivels, so that the bullet follows the rifling all the way down when loading, that way it will stay sealed better in the bore.

 

[Wildfire]

They are right

Hey again.
These guys are right. The manufactures do not want the liability. Heavy rounds do create more PSI. They can not control what you may do. So , they will not list them as loads. This does not mean they can not be used. The thing to remember is tread lightly on thin ice. Any time you change a componant things change..... Velocity is the result of Presure. Heavy rounds need more psi to get them to move. once in motion things calm down some.
The "Whites" use very heavy lead rounds, up to 600 grainers. I have tried this. This is no fun for hunting or target. 600 grainers kick your butt. They also broke a stock. Not a round to fire from a bench. My normal load was a 480 grainer that would stomp any deer it hit. They also ran under an inch at 100. Primers are the last thing to worry about . the powder and that bullet are more important, as long as the primers are right to start with. 777 is a hotter mix. Pyrodex is on the mild side but still has plenty of power and accuracy. You should clean that gun anyway. So the never clean your gun powders are just a gadget. ( in my book). 45-70 should not be hard to reach.
400 plus grainer with 70 grs of BP.
The main difference in the "Whites" metioned earlier is that they are made with "shallow groove rifling" this lowers the PSI. And they fire odd sized bullets. Their bore are .504" not .500". Their bullets are .5035 ( at least they were). These are by far the most accurate rifles I have ever fired. But they chaged some things and I'm not sure they are even in business any more or what name they are under if they are. Anyway! You can go bigger with the bullets but must be carefull with the powder. Until you know your gun will handle it. There is no perfect bullet just some good ones.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

I actually called CVA about that a few years ago. They said that the maximum bullet weight limits were with 150 grains of powder. I didn't really think to ask, but one could presume that a lighter powder charge would allow a heavier bullet.