Apache 30mm chaingun going to work in Iraq

[JoeWang]

Please post or email to someone who can host it. It will be a a good lesson for me and everyone else. Again, no hard feelings. I did not insinuate that the troops were killers. I just questioned their actions, which is allowed in a democracy. It turned out I was wrong. Mea culpa.

 

[gundam007]

Right after they look at the tractor, one of the men to the left had his arms spaced in a way that looked like he was holding a rifle (not aiming, just across his chest).

 

[makarov1]

I saw the unedited footage, and it showed the RPG tossed into the field. What made me so mad was the fact that Peter Jennings gave ample warning that the footage was very disturbing. HAD I NOT SEEN THE RPG TOSSED INTO THE FIELD, yes, the footage may have been disturbing. However, given the circumstances, the footage wasn't disturbing at all. The PC crowd will contend that we should detain these guys and give them a fair trial, as if that's a deterrant. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that these jihadists/Baath loyalists got what they deserved.

 

[schadenfreude]

HAD I NOT SEEN THE RPG TOSSED INTO THE FIELD, yes, the footage may have been disturbing. However, given the circumstances, the footage wasn't disturbing at all.

Exactly, the media completely removes the context then sets it up for their agenda.

Sickening on their part not the pilots.

 

[DorGunR]

Plinking farmers. Didn't they do that in Vietnam?.

moa........I believe you've been watching too many of Mr. Stone's movies.

But Hollywood never did let the truth get in the way of a "good" movie.

 

[mete]

The last time I watched Peter Jennings was the time of the 50th anniversity of the dropping of the atom bomb. Jennings never mentioned we were at war at the time, never mentioned Japan had started it . He made it appear that America ,just out of meaness , dropped the bomb on innocent Japan.

 

[UnknownSailor]

Regarding the 30mm and accuracy, my dad used to work on the Apache program, back when it still was Hughes Helicopters, and it would appear that due to the designed in flexibility of the mount (collapses upwards in a crash, between the pilots), the gun POA wanders vertically during strings of fire, due to the recoil. It's been a constant issue since the aircraft was adopted. It's been tweaked, so it's not as bad as it used to be, but it still does it. The Army has learned to live with it.

Or at least that's what I got while listening to a conversation between my dad and an Apache pilot at an airshow.

Any Apache maintainers want to chime in here?

 

[NorthernExtreme]

I've been on military missions that if a small portion of the mission was put on film would have looked real bad. I suspect these people were followed to their present location and were fired upon due to something they had done earlier. This happens often when Spotters of Surveillance units follow enemy soldiers until Air support arrives to strike the unit, people, or equipment.

I'm not saying this is the case, but does explain how important it is to get all the facts. Emotion is a strong response to overcome and logic and fact often takes a back seat to the emotional response of watching people die. It also illustrates why we need to support our troops. I can guarantee the weapons officer who fired those rounds will live with that the rest of his life. Even though it was necessary, People still lost their life. War is He11, and those who fight it suffer wounds other than physical.

May God watch over them!

 

[schadenfreude]

He made it appear that America ,just out of meaness , dropped the bomb on innocent Japan.

That guy is a bung trout. They always miss the fine print like.....No Pearl Harbor=No Hiroshima

 

[makarov1]

I hope that the weapons officer sleeps like a log, and he should. The targets were attempting to revive a torturing, murderous, despotic regime, and the fact that they died a violent death, as violent as it was, makes Iraq that much better off. I'm sure the mothers of the Iraqi's that were gunned down have cried in anguish for many days and nights at the loss of their own flesh and blood. They have no one else to blame but their sons. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[Telperion]

Sounds like it was a good shoot. Still, the clip makes me glad civilian control of the military is the rule of law in this country, not the other way around.

 

[P95Carry]

Have they taken that file off now? No joy trying to access the URL or even ''save target'' ..... anyone?

 

[Hkmp5sd]

P95Carry,

Use the link from schadenfreude. He is hosting a copy.

 

[Nightfall]

ABC news is showing this clip, harping on the "Rules of Engagement". According to them, it is "disturbing."

*** should they do? Shoot "Let's make up" cards at them and hope they decide not to shoot that RPG? Oh, and I must be some sort of sicko, because I wasn't disturbed at all by American service men shooting armed Iraqi fighters working to reinstall a dictatorial gov't that's done things that would make this look like a nice day at the park.

On a happier note, could I get one of these if the MG ban went away?

 

[artherd]

Scary as hell, but appears justified.

The RPG they had could have blown the helicopter, and both our guys in it, clean to next week. Hell, it was close to justified even if we weren't at war (all they'd have to do was point it at the Apache, or otherwise prepare to fire, and it would be clean self-defence.)

Only thing that concerned me was the first burst that went off-camera (improperly ranged for co-axial bore-sight?)

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

If they were armed or getting rid of weapons that was going to be used against our troops, then good riddance! As many have said, you weren't there and you didn't see the whole thing so keep your judgements to yourself until you get the full facts.

 

[c_yeager]

He doesn't seem to pose a direct threat to the attacking chopper crew.

Even if this were true (it has become apparent that it may not be) the fact is that in WAR the whole shooting only in self defense idea doesnt make any sense. You kill the enemy because he will eventually kill you. If we operated only on an imediate self defense method then the entire IDEA of artillery would be absurd.

As far as finishing off the wounded man i cant BELIEVE that anyone would have an issue with that. Did you see how the guy was flopping around? He just got tagged by a 30mm antitank round. Do you really think he was going to make it? Thank god it wasnt a daylight color film. You could have seen that guy flopping around with various pieces hanging by a thread. When i saw him wounded on the clip i was saying to myself (oh God, please have the decency to finish him off now). Judging by the urgency with which the pilot instructed the gunner to shoot him i imagine he was thinking the very same thing. Its a concept of honor that is maybe going out of fashion but, in my book if you have a terminally wounded enemy suffering in the field you at least do him the decency of ending his suffering.

Considering that it is obviously a nighttime thermal image it never even occured to me that these guys were out conducting routine farm maintinence. Leave it to the media to butcher the relevant part of the clip.

 

[Pylon]

My God, talk about being at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'll bet those guys didn't even know that was coming for them.

And i just thought of something. If only that last guy didn't start coming out of the truck, i think they might have left him alone since the instructor seemed to be looking for movement?

Regardless, damn man, just damn....


-Pylon

 

[OEF_VET]

That video reminds me of another piece of Apache gun camera footage I saw first hand.

Place: Kandahar, Afghanistan
Time: early March, 2002
A local Afghan military force patrol hit an AT (anti-tank) mine while on routine patrol on a route that was regularly driven on, including earlier that very day, with no previous minestrikes. We sent an Apache out to investigate and called for a Predator UAV to be diverted to our AO. We also attempted to gain 'eyes-on' with our perimeter forces. The Apache crew found two men walking thru a field, one carrying a shovel, the other carrying what is unmistakebly an AT mine. The crew watched as these two yahoos buried the mine in a corner of a garden plot. My guess is that they were sucessful with one mine, so they intended to keep the second one for future use. Watching the footage, you can see that whenever the Afghanis thought the Apache was nearby, they'd hide (or so they thought). We also had our Canadian comrades watching from the perimeter, and they sent an Infantry squad out to intercept these guys. It was going to take some time, and the sun was beginning to come up. The Canadian commander authorized his gunners to fire near the Afghanis, in order to pin them down, which it did. Unfortunately, the gunfire brought the civilians outside to investigate, and the two mine-layers got away with the crowd.

The important lesson is that we never shot these two guys, even though we had ample suspicion of their nefarious deeds. I'm certain the pilots in this footage had plenty of cause to engage the Iraqis.

The above mission in Afghanistan was also my one opportunity to fire a mortar mission in combat, when I called for several 81mm Illumination rounds to be fired towards the mine-layers' position.

 

[Grey54956]

I'm not shouting baby-killer or anything like that...

I didn't see the whole clip, so I was not aware that they were armed. If they were armed, then engagement would be justified.

However, my gripe is with the final volley of fire directed at the man crawling out from beneath the damaged and burning truck. This man appears rather wounded/shocked. Firing on him again constitutes an execution of a wounded combatant, which as best I can tell is in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.

We are outraged when we hear about US soldiers being wounded and executed or captured and executed. When it happens, we immediately cry 'war crime'. Well, guess what, it works both ways.

 

[kernal_panic]

you're right the smallest weapon the apache carries is the 30mm. incedently it fires the same 30 mm cannon round that GAU/8 avenger cannon on the A-10 attack plane. it just has one barrel though. they could have used even more firepower like the 2.75 inch folding fin areial rockets.

 

[c_yeager]

So your suggestion is that its all fun until someone gets hurt? This is war you know, its not some kind of game where you call uncle and then go home. Shooting an enemy soldier in the field is most certainly not a war crime despite what the liberal media may tell you. Now if the fellow had thrown up his arms and said "i surrender" then yeah they dont shoot him. What you see here is the reality of war. If you find it distastefull (i do) then your normal. This is why people dont LIKE war. Its a bad bad thing. The whole idea behind it is to kill them before they kill you. The fact is that these guys DECIDED to fight. Running away is not surrendering. Hiding, is not surrendering. Being wounded, is not surrendering. This guy had his chance to surrender when we conquered his country. He could have laid down his weapons at ANY TIME after that point and been just fine but, he didnt. And even up till his last minutes of life he NEVER put up his hands and gave up. Is it our fault that we are simply better at this than they are? Should we have all our soldiers trade in their body armor and fight with one hand tied behind their back? Would that make things fair?

 

[Sean Smith]

However, my gripe is with the final volley of fire directed at the man crawling out from beneath the damaged and burning truck. This man appears rather wounded/shocked. Firing on him again constitutes an execution of a wounded combatant, which as best I can tell is in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Best as I can tell you never read the Geneva Conventions. Or have any grasp what combat is like. Or understand how stunningly stupid it is for some sissy behind a keyboard to second-guess people fighting a damn war.

 

[Marko Kloos]

incedently it fires the same 30 mm cannon round that GAU/8 avenger cannon on the A-10 attack plane.

That is incorrect.

The Apache's 30mm McDonnell Douglas M230 chain gun fires M789 High-Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP), cross-compatible with French DEFA and British ADEN 30mm ammo. The caliber of the Apache's chain gun is 30x113mm.

The A-10's General Electric GAU-8/A gun fires 30mm PGU-13/B High-Explosive Incendiary (HEI), or PGU-14/B Armor-Piercing Incendiary (API) ammunition. The caliber of the GAU-8/A is 30x173mm.

 

[OF]

It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

There's a handful of scumbags who won't get a chance to cheer while people get stuffed feet first into wood chippers ever again.

Ba'athist slimes with half a brain got to live when we rolled into town. Darwin is taking the rest of these morons out with a little help from the US.

- Gabe