Approximating equivalent powder loads?

[Damion45]

As I can not find any VihtaVouri powder, I am trying to approximate my favorite load: 9mm, 125g JHP, 4.0g N320. I have some VV 3N37 and I was recently able to get a pound of Bullseye.

My VV and Modern Handloading (Lee) books do not provide loads which are similar to my pet 4.0g N320 as both books have the minimum loads for these two powders above the velocity of the 4.0g N320 load.

What are the reasons for not going below minimum loads? I have heard about the higher pressures with less powder, but I really don't think that is an issue with marginally lower powder weights. Or is the issue consistency? What constitutes a minimum load for these manuals?

Is there a way to calculate equivalent loads across different powders which are not provided in the reloading manuals?

And BTW, just where the heck is the VhitaVouri powder anyway?

Thanks for any help/clarification.

 

[gonoles_1980]

I'd go to the alliant loading page. I only see 124gr FMJ, no JHP on the Vihtavuorire site. You could use that with your N320 for a comparison. The 3N37 is 6.1 vs 3.9 for the N320 as a starting load. I'd run a ladder load to see how the 3N37 feels compared to the N320.

On the alliant site I only see a 125gr Lead, the closest to your JHP is probably the 124 gr Speer GDHP. It looks like alliant shows the max load as 4.4, so maybe start a ladder load around 3.9.

My Speer manual shows for the 124gr GDHP the following starting loads:
3N37: 5.7
Bullseye: 3.9

My Layman manual show for the 125gr JHP the following starting loads:
Bullseye: 3.9

That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee in some places.

 

[Dudedog]

I don't have any info for 3N37 and have never used it but I believe since it is a slower powder it would be better for the higher side of 9mm loads. ~1100 fps +

I am guessing your 320 load was more around 1050 or so.


Lyman lists this for Bullseye with a 125gr Sierra JHP
Bullseye Start 3.9gr 979 fps Max 4.5gr 1073 fps.

Alliant (small pamplet manual) 124gr Speer GDHP Bullseye Max 4.4 1059 fps.
(reduce 10% to start)

I have loaded MBC 125 lead conicals with Bullseye at both 3.7 and 3.9 gr.
With these bullets 3.7 seems to function both my 9mm pistols fine. 3.9 seems to shoot a little better though, but it was a tough call between the two.

I liked Universal Clays for my 9mm loads but none has been available for quite a while due to the ADI plant fire. I have used a bunch of powders because of this, some of which I tried and liked and was unable to find more of. Out of these Bullseye was one of the ones I liked the best.


Hope this helps.

 

[FLIGHT762]

O/P, If you would post the velocity of your pet load with 4.0 grains of N320, that would help a great deal finding a substitute powder.

 

[Artofgolf]

I have some VV 3N37 and I was recently able to get a pound of Bullseye............And BTW, just where the heck is the VhitaVouri powder anyway? Thanks for any help/clarification.

Try this link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=761683

After contacting Lapua / Nammo Group through their web portal, Kevin responded with the following :

Hi Artofgolf,

Vihtavuori was actually up for sale last year, and the company's future was questionable. Military contracts would have kept the plant operating for the next ten years due to existing obligations, but the commercial end of things was looking like it was going to be phased out. As a result, they'd backed off on production to a bare minimum, which is why we've seen the shortages on this end. We hated to see the company close, as it's exceptionally good powder. In the end, we (NAMMO Inc) wound up purchasing the company ourselves last January. I'm pleased to report that we're looking at greatly increasing capacity, so they should be much more readily available here in the US in the future. Right now, we're in the process of updating many of the manufacturing operations, so things are still running a bit slow right now. We should have this completed soon, and look forward to getting back up to speed. Please be patient, it's coming.

Sincerely,

Kevin

 

[Damion45]

O/P, If you would post the velocity of your pet load with 4.0 grains of N320, that would help a great deal finding a substitute powder.

VV says 1037 fps with a 124g FMJ/FP.

BTW, Lee says minimum Bullseye load for 125 grain jacketed bullet is 4.7g (!).

 

[Walkalong]

I am trying to approximate my favorite load: 9mm, 125g JHP, 4.0g N320.

Have any AA #2?

I am shooting a 124 Gr plated HP with 3.9 Grs of N320. Great stuff. AA #2 will be similar.

 

[1SOW]

Damion45
On line Alliant Powder recipe for Bulleye:
9mm Luger 124 gr Speer GDHP Speer 1.12 4 CCI 500 Bullseye 4.4 1,059

The ZERO 125gr JHP over 4.0 grs of VV n320 at 1.097" gives me about 131 power factor or 148/1050 FPS over a CED Chrono.

The Bullseye powder load above should also reach that speed with less powder than shown due to "MY" shorter oal. Start low and work up and you'll get there. I would "guess" working up to 4.1, 4.2 would get close depending on "YOUR" oal.

I don't think you'll get the same soft feel and cool burning you're used to with the Vit load, but it will run. JMHO

 

[MEHavey]

124JHP/4.0gr/N320 develops an operating pressure of ~23,000psi

It takes 6.0gr/3N37 to reach that same operating pressure since it's slower burning.
That's [one of] the reasons for minimums in an autoloader

~4.3gr/Bullseye will provide the same operating pressure, and a slower speed more akin to the OP's original load.

VERIFY SAFE LOADS BY EITHER PUBLISHED MANUALS and/or POWDER MANUFACTURER'S WEBSITE

 

[41 Mag]

They aren't exact, but they are really close in burn rate to the N320 that you mentioned. I would check and see which ones you might have, or can find, then compare data and work up to the velocity your getting with the N320.

HP 38, e3, PB, W231, AA 2, N320​

These can be found at the follwing link,
ADI Powder Equivalents

 

[Damion45]

Have any AA #2?

I am shooting a 124 Gr plated HP with 3.9 Grs of N320. Great stuff. AA #2 will be similar.

Unfortunately there isn't much pistol powder available around here yet. I have used up my Unique, N320, N340, 700X, and AA#5. I was lucky to find the Bullseye!

 

[Damion45]

124JHP/4.0gr/N320 develops an operating pressure of ~23,000psi

It takes 6.0gr/3N37 to reach that same operating pressure since it's slower burning.
That's [one of] the reasons for minimums in an autoloader

~4.3gr/Bullseye will provide the same operating pressure, and a slower speed more akin to the OP's original load.

VERIFY SAFE LOADS BY EITHER PUBLISHED MANUALS and/or POWDER MANUFACTURER'S WEBSITE

That is helpful. I will try both loads and see what happens. Thanks!

 

[Damion45]

Try this link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=761683

After contacting Lapua / Nammo Group through their web portal, Kevin responded with the following :

Hi Artofgolf,

Vihtavuori was actually up for sale last year, and the company's future was questionable. Military contracts would have kept the plant operating for the next ten years due to existing obligations, but the commercial end of things was looking like it was going to be phased out. As a result, they'd backed off on production to a bare minimum, which is why we've seen the shortages on this end. We hated to see the company close, as it's exceptionally good powder. In the end, we (NAMMO Inc) wound up purchasing the company ourselves last January. I'm pleased to report that we're looking at greatly increasing capacity, so they should be much more readily available here in the US in the future. Right now, we're in the process of updating many of the manufacturing operations, so things are still running a bit slow right now. We should have this completed soon, and look forward to getting back up to speed. Please be patient, it's coming.

Sincerely,

Kevin

Well, good news. Thanks!

 

[Damion45]

Thanks everyone for the help! I really appreciate the work. Back to the Bench!

 

[Damion45]

124JHP/4.0gr/N320 develops an operating pressure of ~23,000psi

It takes 6.0gr/3N37 to reach that same operating pressure since it's slower burning.
That's [one of] the reasons for minimums in an autoloader

~4.3gr/Bullseye will provide the same operating pressure, and a slower speed more akin to the OP's original load.

VERIFY SAFE LOADS BY EITHER PUBLISHED MANUALS and/or POWDER MANUFACTURER'S WEBSITE

6.0 grains of 3N 37 was dead on at point of aim. Recommended Bullseye loads were consistently a little high and sharper in recoil, yet grouped well. Going to try 5.9g 3N 37 just to see what t does...

 

[Sunray]

"...equivalent loads..." No such thing. The closest you can get to that is like or similar burn rates.
"...only see 124gr FMJ..." That'll do. You load for the weight, not the shape, style or who made the bullet.

 

[MEHavey]

closest you can get to that is like or similar burn rates...

See POST 5 HERE.

Please know that burn rate is only one of about seven different factors that
come into play once the primer goes off. Don't rely on any BR charts you
find to compare powders and actually load from them.



.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Damion45

6.0 grains of 3N 37 was dead on at point of aim. Recommended Bullseye loads were consistently a little high and sharper in recoil, yet grouped well. Going to try 5.9g 3N 37 just to see what t does...

3N37 doesn't work very well for light loads. Groups will open up and unburnt powder will appear as you get closer to the min charge. I use this powder exclusively for hot 9x19 SD loads.