AR-10 size rifles run-down, experts give us the run-down

[taliv]

well... YOURs works [strike]PERIOD[/strike] after you changed mags, replaced springs, buffers, stock, trigger, and monkeyed with the buffer weights

don't get me wrong. i appreciate your posts, including this one, as they oft contain valuable first-hand experience. but your total round count on this one rifle is still less than half an average carbine class. i wouldn't say "all POFs run period" any sooner than I'd believe 2nd hand info from an anonymous carbine instructor that they're all crap. the truth is doubtless somewhere in between

 

[MCMXI]

taliv, you make a very good point. I only have two POF rifles and I've only put 500 or so rounds through both. However, the difference between a system that works and one that doesn't can be due to one small componenet in the system. As tirod (IIRC) stated a few weeks back, AR magazines are one of the biggest problems with the AR platform. I added buffers and buffer springs to that list.

A statement such as "POF guns don't always make it through a carbine class" is moronic and incredibly misleading. Where's the science, the data, the analysis. Why didn't they make it? If some haven't made it, did they all stop working for the same reason? How many other brands didn't make it? When you think about it, it's possible that EVERY AR would make it through a carbine course if the magazines, buffers and buffer springs were optimized. AR timing is one of the least understood aspects of the AR. Many companies, POF inlcuded, simply raid the parts bin to throw on a buffer tube, buffer, srpring and stock. Rather than accept their laziness and lack of due dilligence, take the initiative and get it working for yourself. Here's the ex knocking down bad guys all the way out to 375 yards with my P-415. 100+ rounds of XM193 that day without any issues with plenty of rapid fire drills. Would I trust my life to either of the POFs ... HECK YEAH!!

 

[taliv]

yep

ex

bummer


neat range! where is that?

 

[MCMXI]

neat range! where is that?

It's a Marine Corps base in Hawaii. I took some photos (through my spotting scope) of the ex knocking down the 375 yard target ... good fun!!

 

[taliv]

ha, figures. i was wondering if that little spot of blue on the right was ocean

 

[Z-Michigan]

Let me preface my response by saying that I have 100's of rounds through a P-415 as well as the 10-15 rounds through a P-308, and I have absolutely nothing against POF. Both guns have been very reliable in my and my friends' usage of them, but that use has been light and easy, nothing that really tests a gun much. Apart from price I would happily own one. But...

As an owner/user of two POF rifles, namely a P-415 and a P-308 I don't agree with that statement at all. In fact, I think your local trainer has it backwards.

I am not close enough to this trainer to feel that I can speak for him or name him, but if you visit MGO forums you can probably figure out who he is. He runs a lot of carbine classes at a professional level (substantially LE training) and while he is somewhere between blunt and brutal with his assessments, I think his statements are worth considering - but of course I know who he is and have met him, where you presumably have not.

They're not really hobby rifles at all, they're legitimate professional use rifles aimed at high-end users. They're particularly aimed at those who intend to run them suppressed under very tough conditions so they're overkill for casual plinking ... no doubt about that.

The statement about being hobby rifles is my personal assessment, not that of the anonymous trainer or anyone else. They are highly engineered rifles and are really cool. However, whether they are actually worthy of "professional" use is to be proven through actual usage in hard training (or combat) by professionals, not through aspirations and cool features. They do seem like a good choice if you have the option of using a suppressor. However, in terms of "professional" credibility, I will be convinced after I see multiple contracts to significant LE agencies or military users. It's not something that comes overnight. The only .308 AR platforms that have significant military acceptance at this time are Knight's SR-25 and the LMT .308, both of which are DI designs and of course very expensive as well (though nothing worse than a P-308).

 

[MachIVshooter]

Armalite: surprised this company is still in business. proprietary mags. skip it.

If proprietary mags were a good reason to not purchase a gun, there'd be very few guns worth owning.

AR-10 mags are expensive, period. The Armalite mags can be had for ~$30/ea bought a few at a time. They also offer 25 rounders, which is a plus to the usual 20. You can also modify M1A 30 rounders, like the one in mine for this photo:



To my knowledge, nothing over 20 is available for the DPMS pattern mags. And they are still at least $20/ea. (P-mag; the OEM mags are $45)

I have no problem with the DPMS rifles, but I love Armalite for their quality and their CS (never had a rifle problem, but very helpful when ordering accessories or just asking questions).

Armalite was the only one in the game for under $2k when I bought in 2004, but I'd make the same choice today. That's why A2 middy 15 is also an Armalite. And my AR-50 is the bee's knees, IMO.

 

[MCMXI]

I am not close enough to this trainer to feel that I can speak for him or name him, but if you visit MGO forums you can probably figure out who he is. He runs a lot of carbine classes at a professional level (substantially LE training) and while he is somewhere between blunt and brutal with his assessments, I think his statements are worth considering - but of course I know who he is and have met him, where you presumably have not.

I have no idea who you're talking about but perhaps you could ask him for a list of the specific POF failures involved. As a POF owner I'd find this very useful since it could help me avoid a similar failure. If he's in the business of training and presumably helping others select firearms, he would surely keep a log book of some type.

I won't say that POF are the best ARs out there since I don't believe they are. There are many better options and it's irksome to me that a $2,600 "AR10" needs to be improved by the end user in order to run with 100% reliability. There are other issues with the P-308 that are unacceptable to me at this price point. The fit between the upper and lower is way too loose. This is something that I'll need to address if it's adversely affecting accuracy. As I mentioned earlier, the ridiculously undersized AR15 takedown pins are nothing short of a disgrace and are partly responsible for the sloppy fit. It's as if POF made a real effort for 95% of the project then said "good enough". It's the last 5% that makes all the difference. This is true of most things in life.

To FloatPilot ... if you like a challenge with lots of potential then buy a POF. If you'd rather be shooting and not tinkering then you may want to buy a DPMS/Rem, LaRue OBR, SR25 etc. I don't regret buying the P-308 and it is certainly one of my favorite rifles but I could probably have spent my money more wisely but then again, I like tinkering. The P-415 has been much less work and has been flawless after the initial break-in. I did upgrade the buffer spring, buffer and trigger though.

 

[Z-Michigan]

To my knowledge, nothing over 20 is available for the DPMS pattern mags. And they are still at least $20/ea. (P-mag; the OEM mags are $45)

The Magpul .308 Pmags are $18-19 if you shop around. But I have two and haven't been as impressed with them as with their .223 Pmags. The C-Products DPMS .308 type mags are as low as $15 at some places and are, IMHO, pretty good. Neither those nor the DPMS OEM mags impress me, however. I have read that Knight's SR-25 mags are great, but I have not personally seen or used any of them.

On the Armalite side, if you can afford a $1300 rifle shooting ammo that costs upwards of 50 cents/round, you can afford a couple of $30 mags. It was only a couple years ago that DPMS mags cost $35-45 each and few people were complaining about their pricey, proprietary mags. And as noted, if you're really really cheap you can make AR-10 mags by converting M14 mags.

I have no problem with the DPMS rifles, but I love Armalite for their quality and their CS (never had a rifle problem, but very helpful when ordering accessories or just asking questions).

I own a DPMS LR-308B and an Armalite M15A4 (.223) and find the Armalite nicer in just about all ways. I admire the DPMS for its price point and accuracy, and price is why I bought one. And I have shot a 1/2" group at 50 yards with it, which is not bad (I have only maybe 50 rounds total through it; please note, this is at 50 yards, not 100, so it would equate to around 1 MOA, which is consistent with what many people report for the DPMS models with a free float barrel - and I haven't shot it enough yet to know if this is repeatable or one lucky group). But on the whole I am not impressed with it, and generally wish I had either not bought it at all or had instead ponied up the extra $300 for an Armalite AR-10, which I had been wanting before and find myself still wanting since buying the DPMS. This is just opinion, of course - I haven't shot an Armalite AR-10, just admired the ones I handled and looked at.

For fear of killing a few more sacred cows and making myself really unpopular, I have concluded that for my personal uses, a good bolt-action rifle offers better accuracy than any of the .308 ARs for less money than even the DPMS, and an FAL or M1A offers most of the accuracy I can use with reliability, solid engineering and a solid military track record, although admittedly not quite the level of practical accuracy* that is possible with a top notch .308 AR platform. This is just my personal conclusion, and I'm not telling other people what to do.

(*The high-end match M1As can offer 1 MOA or better, but require serious original work and maintenance to get there and stay there. A really tricked out FAL with a free-float forend can also get in that ballpark, typically with single loading of the mag, but loses its practicality if you go that route. The nicer .308 ARs have the potential to offer reliable semiauto operation with MOA accuracy, but cost plenty to get there.)

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have concluded that for my personal uses, a good bolt-action rifle offers better accuracy than any of the .308 ARs for less money than even the DPMS,

Definitely. You can build a .5 MOA bolt gun for a grand.

Biggest issue with getting that super-duper accuracy from an autoloader is that they beat up the bullet nose on chambering. No way to avoid that, except single-loading, which defeats the purpose.

My 10A2 carbine is about 1.5 MOA with ball, softpoint, poly tipped, whatever.

 

[taliv]

And they are still at least $20/ea. (P-mag; the OEM mags are $45)

i paid under $15 for all my pmag 308s. i bought plenty so haven't shopped lately though.

i have lots of the KAC mags too, but at over $100 list, i sure don't beat on them like i do ar15 mags.

 

[Mags]

The thing that the Armalite fanboys are overlooking is that only Armalite and Noveske use the modified M14 mags. DPMS, Remington, Bushmaster, POF, LWRC, LMT, and KAC all use the same mags.

Which mag design do you think will be easier to find 20 years from now?

Look at the RRA LAR8 for example designed when FAL mags were plentiful and 4-10 bucks a pop, now FAL mags are hard to find and 20 bucks a piece used if you are lucky; and these were for a rifle nicknamed "the right arm of the free world".

 

[Float Pilot]

Boy more good info...

The reason I asked is because I was thinking about buying one, even though I really do not need one...

I have had four M1As including a Super Match and they were ok but heavy.

The only one (M1A) I have right now is an old standard model cut down to a shorty. It is still too flippin heavy for as inaccurate as it became when cut-down. Plus the loss of velocity makes it less usable up here.

I have also had a couple real FN made FALs and a SAR-48. Very reliable , but heavy and not all that accurate.

I do have a 6.8x43 Stag that I have slightly modified and it is very accurate. BUT, here in Alaska it does not possess enough power to be a rifle that you would take into the brush during the summer months. A bear would shove it right where the sun don't shine.... It is just fine for Caribou, wolves, and other winter time critters.

So, if I do pick up a AR-10 size rifle:
it will have to be in 308 or better. 243 and 260 Rem are neat but not enough bullet for some things up here...
Plus I will need a barrel of 18 inches or more. I can't afford shed velocity.
I need a fixed butt-stock.
A flat top for scope mounting
a six mags.

I am now starting to think about the DPMS light-weight version. They claim it is under 8 pounds...
I have enough heavy rifles... The guys on the AR-16 web site sure rag on the DPMS versions as being junk...

And it is true that I also have enough bolt guns that do everything I need done. At least for hunting and also long range attitude adjustment..

But, the more white hair I have, (I am a has-been , not a wanna-be) the more I think that there is nothing wrong with a rifle that has enough (Leave me the frak alone) value packed into it, so it becomes an all around rifle.

 

[Z-Michigan]

The thing that the Armalite fanboys are overlooking is that only Armalite and Noveske use the modified M14 mags

Sig recently chose Armalite's mag design as well for their .308 AR. That makes three. Noveske and Sig are pretty good company, IMHO.

And anyone with a drill and a file can turn M14 mags into AR-10 mags. If M14 mags will be unavailable, there are going to be worse problems than scarcity of the AR-10 mags. I agree with your point in principle, like if the AR-10 mags were truly proprietary (see, for instance, FN-AR mags). But I think the pattern will be available, just not the cheapest.

 

[Z-Michigan]

So, if I do pick up a AR-10 size rifle:
it will have to be in 308 or better. 243 and 260 Rem are neat but not enough bullet for some things up here...
Plus I will need a barrel of 18 inches or more. I can't afford shed velocity.
I need a fixed butt-stock.
A flat top for scope mounting
a six mags.

Something in .338 Federal might be just your speed. There are options from DPMS and Armalite.

Otherwise a lightweight .308 sounds good. The DPMS options will be by far the least expensive. Shrubmaster is coming out with a 16" .308 sometime this year, basically a DPMS but with a Shrubmaster chrome-lined barrel and a mid-length gas system, both of which would be good features IMHO. CMMG is also supposed to be introducing uppers and complete rifles any time now, though when that will be I don't know.

 

[SmokyBaer]

Wow... started reading this thread cause I am really having issues making up my mind. Love my FNAR for it's proven long range capability but it is one complex puppy.

Anyways, I'm need a simple AR .308 that will do 1" @ 100 or better and thought the AR10 was gonna be the one... until you boys done me in with all these "facts". :banghead:

 

[Z-Michigan]

Anyways, I'm need a simple AR .308 that will do 1" @ 100 or better and thought the AR10 was gonna be the one... until you boys done me in with all these "facts".

All the DI .308 ARs have basically the same design (with detail differences and a lot of parts incompatibility) and parts count, so would be equally "simple."

I handled an FN-AR just a couple days ago and liked it. If it's working for you I wouldn't be in a hurry to replace it!

 

[Float Pilot]

I take it that once the M14 mags are modified to work in an Armalite AR that they are no longer useful in an M-1A ?

I have 20 of the darn things...

 

[MCMXI]

Biggest issue with getting that super-duper accuracy from an autoloader is that they beat up the bullet nose on chambering. No way to avoid that, except single-loading, which defeats the purpose.

This is the point that I made in post #24. I do 100% of my load development using the rifle the way it was meant to be used. This is true for ALL of my firearms. As I stated, the POF is a legitimate 1 MOA rifle or better at 100 yards with reloads even with the bullets and cases getting banged up during the transition from the magazine to the chamber. During rapid fire drills at 300 yards using factory ammunition it's a legitimate 1.5 MOA rifle or better. With reloads I'd expect around 1 MOA. This is very acceptable for a semi-auto "battle" rifle or even a hunting rifle. The whole point of a semi-auto rifle over a bolt action is rate of fire and magazine capacity ... nothing new here. If you don't need either one of those attributes then you may want to buy something else.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The thing that the Armalite fanboys are overlooking is that only Armalite and Noveske use the modified M14 mags. DPMS, Remington, Bushmaster, POF, LWRC, LMT, and KAC all use the same mags.

Which mag design do you think will be easier to find 20 years from now?

For one, the Armalites will use either modified M1A mags or the new Gen II mags.

On that point, the notion of M1A mags becoming scarce is pretty far fetched.

More curious to me is the idea that there would be some reason the M1A mags and proprietary Armalite Gen II mags we already have would become suddenly unusable and require replacement after 2 decades.

Mag availability is a silly reason to choose/not consider a platform. I have a brand new magazine in my 69 year old SVT-40. I was easily able to find magazines for my VZ-52 rifle, which was only produced in the 7.62x45 caliber for 5 years, on a relatively limited basis, and half the world away. Unless you just have to be able to get your magazines from the local sporting goods store because you don't believe in internet or telephone ordering, magazines for any gun are available and can be in your hands within a few days.

I take it that once the M14 mags are modified to work in an Armalite AR that they are no longer useful in an M-1A ?

I have 20 of the darn things...

Correct. You remove the catch tab, because it will engage the BHO on the AR-10.

 

[Mags]

On that point, the notion of M1A mags becoming scarce is pretty far fetched.

I find it funny when you quoted me you left out my example of your very same thinking. My example was with the FAL, where are the cheap NIB FAL mags?

When I purchase a gun I take into consideration parts availability, for you it may not be of concern. But from the OP it looks like it may be on his mind. After reading that the OP already has an M1A and that modified M1A mags still can be used in the M1A maybe the Armalite should be what the OP goes with, even though it is heavier than what he wishes.

 

[Bigfoot]

Float Pilot, sounds like you want a lighter weight AR-10. Harrison at AR Performance is building them. One of the calibers offered is 338 RCM. He's a custom shop, ask him if he will make you one in .358.

Here's his shop. He's one of the main smiths that ironed out the kinks of the the 6.8SPC. http://www.ar15performance.com/

Here's his forum. His handle is Constructor. He has started a couple of threads about his ITS-CR 12 here.
http://www.ar15techforums.com/BBS/forumdisplay.php?f=29

 

[MachIVshooter]

I find it funny when you quoted me you left out my example of your very same thinking. My example was with the FAL, where are the cheap NIB FAL mags?

Hard to find FAL mags? Do you not have google?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...a=X&ei=zm0eTPevNpXmnQfo2sCHDg&ved=0CFAQ1QIoAQ

I never said cheap. But then, M1A mags are still cheaper than the DPMS pattern mags.

http://www.google.com/search?q=M14+...UTF-8&startIndex=1&startPage=1&rlz=1I7GPEA_en

And to point out what was already mentioned, if you can afford a $1,500 rifle and ~$0.50/round ammo, what's the problem with $20-$30 mags? Unless you're leaving them at the range all the time............

How many mags do you need for your rifle, anyway? I have 3 gen II 25 rounders and a half dozen modified M1A mags (20 and 30) for my AR. Can't say getting more is really a priority.

If the OP wants to make his decision based on magazine price and availability, that's his business. But to say that magazines costing $30 instead of $18 is a good reason to put a rifle out of the running is just silly.

 

[Mags]

Again MachIV, you keep mentioning your preferences. If you want a 308 AR style rifle start your own thread with your preferences outlined. Also read my post in their entirety at the end of my last post I agree the AR10 may be the best thing for the OP.

It seems likely to me that you already have an AR10 and are defending it for some reason even though it hasn't been attacked. Calm down man I don't have stake in any of the guns I have mentioned, I just want the OP to find the right gun.

Again another opinion from you is this:

if you can afford a $1,500 rifle and ~$0.50/round ammo, what's the problem with $20-$30 mags?

20-30 dollar mags may be fine for you but somone else may want 15-20 dollar mags after spending all their money on a 1500+ rifle .50 cent a pop bullets.

How many mags do you need for your rifle, anyway? I have 3 gen II 25 rounders and a half dozen modified M1A mags (20 and 30) for my AR. Can't say getting more is really a priority.

Again something else based on what you percieve as needed. I feel 20+ mags per semi-auto rifle is needed but that is my opinion.

I think you fail to notice everyone has a different opinion as to what is needed for them. Their opinion may not be yours or mine and that does not make it wrong.

As for your google link none of those mags are NIB andin stock! LOL, do your research I had the RRA LAR8 I know what FAL mags go for and how hard they are to find. Heck try finding the 30 round FAL mags, you will feel like Indiana Jones after a while.

Different strokes for different folks!

 

[MachIVshooter]

you keep mentioning your preferences

No, I'm not.

I just keep reiterating that I think the mag argument is a silly one.

I have no stake in the OP's decision, could care less which rifle he opts for and for what reasons. All I'm saying is that telling the OP he shouldn't get an Armalite or Noveske because of the magazines being a little more expensive is really obtuse.

If he really wants cheap mags, he should be looking at a G-3 pattern rifle, where he can get 10 mags for $40.

But this thread is about AR-10 pattern guns, and no one is buying any of them because of cheap magazines.