AR-15 Long Range Accuracy - 6.5 WSSM, RAR or similar?

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1stmarine

1stmarine

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Anyone knows the status of the .243 WSSM, .30RAR and/or any of their 6.5 siblings for the AR-15 platform?
I think that the Grendel is a great case but it falls a bit short in horse power(capacity) for what I want to do at long range.

I have been looking at candidates to neck up or down and the list is big but when it comes to OAL for AR-15 where one could put a decent bullet then it gets down to a few.

These are:
Cartrige Lenght Rim diameter
243WSSM - 1.6701 .5311
6mmBRX 1.580 .4728 (.308 Win)
6mmBR 1.560 .4728 (very accurate .30BR but not LR).
6mm Dasher 1.560 .4728
6mm PPC 1.532 .4402 (Russian)
.30RAR 1.530 .4920 (somehow unusual face)
Grendel 1.515 .4402 (Russian)

My goal is to achieve 2700 with a 140gr bullet of a ballistic coefficient close or superior to .5
So by further filtering from the above list I end up with 3 obvious options but there might be more.

- 243WSSM - More than enough capacity to pull out the horse power above but high BC bullet not possible due to OAL. Same issue we have with the OSSM. I calculated that the neck could come down .011 and then with some AR mags this could be done. maybe?

- 30RAR - It looks like a strong case at 55K PSI tops and it could do the above. It can sit ok a high BC bullet of 168gr. with no problems in AR. I am not sure the status of this caliber since Remington did a disaster campaign with the 4 round magazine, 125gr. bullets and the hunting only oriented R-15. The same .450 bushmaster 10 round mags could work for this.

- 6mm Dasher - It looks like a good candidate in terms of capacity and dimensions but I know nothing about this one.

Thoughts anyone?
E.
 
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I would think that .243 WSSM and .30 RAR generate too much pressure (bolt thrust) for an AR-15 to handle. They are 55k-60kpsi cartridges. Look at a AR-10, R-25, etc, if you want to do that. DPMS, I think, is (was?) making uppers for the .30 RAR, but there is no brass available to reloaders as of earlier this year, per my conversation with Remington. Also, you probably won't find this tidbit on the internet in a casual search, but Remington changed the case head diameter to some obscure size (not .473" anymore like the parent .284 Win), probably to keep people from blowing themselves up. Or to have something proprietary. Or they were having feed problems with the rebated rim.

I don't think you're going to get 2700fps with a 140gr .308" bullet from the .30 RAR case. I think you will get there with a .30 WSSM though (neck up a .25 WSSM = case capacity of .308 Win) The .243 WSSM can get well over 3,000 fps, and I think there is potential for a 140gr to get you 2700 fps from a 6.5 WSSM.

Check out dtech... http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/

He will surely know much more than I do about the AR-15 being able to handle the .243 WSSM, etc.

BTW, I converted a Savage 7mm WSM to .358 WSSM this year, the culmination of two years of investigation into an Indiana legal deer rifle, and I considered many of the parent cases you are looking at. I considered many things, but the shortest distance to the goal (meet or beat the .35 Remington) turned out to be the .358 WSSM. I am not quite getting to top .358 Win load levels, but I am exceeding top factory .35 Rem loads by ~300fps or more, and matching factory .358 Win loads. I'm getting 200gr @ 2550fps from my .358 WSSM, and some people have been able to push a 180gr to 2700fps.
 
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I would think that .243 WSSM and .30 RAR generate too much pressure (bolt thrust) for an AR-15 to handle. They are 55k-60kpsi cartridges.
Click to expand...

Ar15 uppers for the WSSM's utilize a much larger bbl extension and bolt head than a 5.56 upper would. In essence you're only limited by what fits in the magwell. With this fairly recent development you're now able to get the kind of performance from the AR15 that previously required the much larger, expensive and heavier AR10 frame
 
Thanks for your feedback. That's right the WSSM in AR equation is already resolved but with very poor bullet selection (low BC) due to the OAL limitation. This is why the WSSM case will have to be improved. The .30RAR holds 44gr of water and it has the potential.

Long range hunting I am talking 700-800 yards. Past that it doesn't matter what system you have it is very hard to keep a good ethical shot. I need two things out of the upper: excellent accuracy sub-.5MOA and enough energy+speed.

The advantage of the RAR is that necked down can keep the AR-15 OAL for a very good bullet selection. WSSM it is a great choice too but the OAL needs to be worked out. This all has been studied. See my original post.

Cheers,
E.
 
I talked to Remington about the 30 AR and they are still going with it. I just do not understand why their campaign was so bad. It seems like the case with a 160gr. bullet will be a very good hunting round and might not be necessary to neck down for most applications.

I talked to another friend also into long range and he also believes the 30RAR necked down will reach very far. It has the potential to reach further than the Grendel since it could be done with the same bullets and more powder and this is a stronger case anyway.

In theory this will excel where the poor bullet selection is kiling the longer range capabilities specially the 6.8SPC and WSSM cartriges.

It looks that I am going to give this a try. I am waiting for confirmation about the true status of this round from the shop.
 
In the long quest for long range accuracy out of the WSSM in the AR15 we are done. I am not pursuing any more research for now as we cannot find a solution. So this project is parked for now. Great cases but it is what it is. The round comes out too darn long for the AR-15 to be a good LR round no matter what you do.
Cheers.
E.
 
marine- are you opposed to the 308 platform? you can easily achieve 1000 yrds with a standard 243win? 105 gr berger vlds will give you your bc.
 
Hi,
No I am not opposed to anything. That's actually and awesome option.
In fact I have several of the heavy ARs already but I just like the lightness of the AR-15.
As the OSSM came out with lots of marketing about more energy than the .308 and even the 30.06 a lot of people got into this. I was already into this but then I am not looking for punching paper at 1000 yards but to take down mountain goats and deer past the 600 and possibly 700 yards.
I can do it with the .308, 30-06 and obviously the super magnums but I wanted to come up with something lighter and a repeater.

I located the RAR barrel I wanted and now I am also looking into start reloading the RAR that has a lot of potential and OAL is not an issue but I am afraid it will fall short too. At least this one is very accurate so if I start reloading I see no need for the WSSM for most hunting up to 500 yards. Also if feeds much better.

I ordered the dies but they didn't have them in stock so I am waiting for the back order....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=565108
 
well here is my 243win it is a 20" medium cobtour
SAM_0008.jpg
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nice looking rifle. Very good choice!
I know I am looking for something might never come true and pushing the limits of the AR-15 platform
but where is the fun then?
I am also into a 243x45 project but the BBL just doesn't show up. It is taking for ever to have the barrel cut.
I am going with the lothar walther medium contour too...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=564287

Look at the .243 bullets in the post. I will be posting more.
Barnes TSX and TTSX extremely lethal. I will be also testing the nosler e-tip that I have in .308 and .338
with great results. I am only interested in good hunting bullets that fly well. I don't care about low BC.

This new upper could be your .243 little brother!. lol
 
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thank you. I'm a believer in 6mm. I've just never shot a bad 243. and with that comp it literally sits still
 
suzukisam,
I updated the post. See above. Read my post.

I am also an admirer of the .243. I think that 6mm is the ideal caliber to retrofit the M-16 based platform with. 750,000 of them if needed. There is plenty of reasons why.

There is no doubt when it comes to bullet selection the biggest assortment and the best brass selection also is in the .224, 243 and .308 departments. With those one covers pretty much any target or hunting in this planet.
Any of them have won more matches than any other caliber will.

The .50 cal and .338 lapuas are too much only needed for elk, bear, and other beasts at long range. In the military too as there will always be need for special purpose systems.

Cheers.
 
My bro picked up a shilen 6x45 a couple years ago and it's just sitting on the shelf. it took a back seat to his 6.8 specII. I didn't read the entire thread but are you pretty satisfied with it? what kind of distance is it capable of? I've read many places the accuracy is phenomenal!
 
suzukisam,
I even have the loads ready but the AR barrel is not here yet. It is being cut from a lothar walter. They are taking forever. Anyway no much testing can be done in the north in the winter so I hope it will arrive in the next 2 weeks.

The round won many matches back in the 70's before the BR came along and took over. The performance increase is a 20 to 30% over the .223 but with much better .243 bullets. Specially for hunting deer. Very light and the only thing that changes is the barrel. The brass (resized to .243) the bolt, carrier, magazine everything the same. only a 6mm barrel. That's all.

Very simple and fills some of the gaps and shortcomings of the .223 quite nicely.
Actually after 250yards it beats the 6.8 due to the much better bullets (high Ballistics Coefficient) in the .243 department. I feel confortable taking down a deer up to 250 to 300 yards. with the .223 I am not.

So I believe it is the perfect balance between range, accuracy and operational weight (this is a huge issue for the military). Also the same cases can be made stronger in the same dimension so the pressure could be safely pumped up a little if needed with military loads.

A very good round whoever you asks. Look at the ballistics charts I put in the post. It is nice and this w/o counting the full compatibility with everything else in the AR. Even old barrels could be rebored and reused like new. JUST LIKE A GREEN PROJECT! lol!

Examples: this might be hard to push but even a little less will be ok too...
This is an initial chart easily doable by the .243x45 casing.
.243 spitzer BT bullet 90gr. .388 BC
temp 68. Sea level.

Range Velocity Drop Energy
0 2850 0 1623
100 2607 2.5 1358
200 2384 10.14 1136
300 2173 23.94 944
400 1972 45.15 777
500 1783 75.35 635
600 1608 116.54 517
700 1450 171.2 420
800 1311 242.41 343
900 1195 333.77 285
1000 1106 449.28 244
 
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