AR build thoughts

[merlinfire]

Couple of questions real quick.

1. For an "all around" AR with no one purpose but may be called upon to do many things, what length barrel and accessories do you think would be best? A "mid-length" barrel?

Also, how do you feel about a forward grip? Upsides/downsides compared to a bare forend?

 

[benzy2]

All around is very open. My all around is different than yours. What do you honestly expect the majority of bullets to be fired at and in what manor? Or what do you shoot at now? Obviously a 14lb bench gun isn't a great HD gun, but a do it all mentality again depends on what you plan to do most.

It also matters what your budget would be. A do all $600 rifle is a lot different than a do all $3000 rifle.

That said, I'd look at a lower with your choice of stock, collapsing or fixed, standard or expensive, with a trigger of your choice (be that more set towards bench/target shooting or more towards field use or towards defense). Then I'd probably go with an 18" WOA upper if you plan on more accurate fire, or if reliability/defense is the goal, something like a BCM mid-length with handguards of your choice. Really, there are a lot of options to pick from and more definition of what this rifle might be used for would be handy.

 

[rjrivero]

You know, I'd like to know too. I've built my 4th one and have yet to figure out why I want to build a fifth already....

 

[TonyAngel]

Build a 16" with a stainless match type of barrel. I really like the Bravo Company SS410 barrel. With a carbine built around that barrel, it will likely do everything that you will want to do with it. Precision shooting, action shooting, plinking, etc. It'll cover it all.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

1. I like the 16" midlength barrel for a general purpose barrel. The SS match barrel is nice if you want to do precision; but typically has a few more ounces in the barrel than a Noveske or BCM offering.

2. Vertical grips are actually a more complex question than you might think. I find the main advantage is in 3-gun style shooting. I've discussed some of my thoughts on that here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406785

 

[chris in va]

I don't have an AR yet but have read countless threads on the subject and talked FTF with a few owners.

The 'middy' gas length seems all the rage now. Less recoil, easier on the innards etc etc.

 

[Tirod]

For a "do it all," you compromise long distance precision, and don't make up for it because it will be too big for CQB/entry team.

That works for the average shooter pretty well, for some bad reasons. Most shooters can't even find a 600m range, so they never shoot it. And very few would last seconds against a martial arts knowledgeable opponent who can barehand takedown them before they get a shot off. So, setting up the gun for the extreme ends of all around won't be effective - they completely lack the skills.

What you wind up with is a 50 to 300m gun, which is actually a good hunting rifle. Set up to Elmer Fudd the local game, you do get a good all around gun. It won't be tricked out like the extreme variations which would limit the opposite application.

I'll be specific - some won't like it, but they will base their objection on not being an extreme gun. Riiiiight. All around caliber, 5.56 if you shoot a lot - hundreds of rounds a month. If much less (which nobody admits,) then consider 6.8SPC, which makes the AR a legal hunting caliber - all around doesn't exclude that, does it? A 16" midlength gas is best.

Upper, A3 with rail, which mounts at most a 2X7, preferably less, or better yet, a red dot or reflex. The Leupold HAMR would be nice, if it didn't cost twice as much as the gun. A small three power with mini reflex will likely be the hot do all optic for a while now. Because, it offers a lot of versatility. With all that optic, a set of MBUS for backup. Light and somewhat cheap.

Furniture, either A1 or A2. Short stocks don't offer as much utility as they do cost, KISS is your friend here. An expensive butt stock and grip are guaranteed by their makers to give you precisely 0 - zero - zip - nada improvement in accuracy. Free float? Simple tubes, no rails. Frankly, the gun is 2MOA, it'll hit a ten inch square at 500m, a free float won't tighten it up as much as the money spent on a better barrel and premium ammo. The argument that "it makes it more accurate" hasn't been backed up with range reports, and the makers again guarantee absolutely nothing in improvement.

Trigger? Please approach them with a sense of getting something for you money beside the brag rights one is owned. Most are overtravel limited by an adjustable set screw, even a cheap LPK kit is greatly improved with that alone. For an all around rifle, a nice crisp trigger is the result.

As a whole, not spending money on a $250 free float, $150 trigger, and $100 stock will save a lot toward a good optic, and plenty of ammo to break it in. The average shooter won't be able to see the difference for quite a while, and when they do, it's likely in a special use application - not part of being an all around gun.

 

[Gunsby_Blazen]

Gunsby's advice.

hmm
general recommendations:
i would go with an 18 inch barrel rather than 16 to get just a tad but more velocity.
go with a midlength gas system rather than a carbine because it is not as hard on your bolt and buffer, it runs softer on the gun and prolongs its life
i would go with a Bennie Cooley or other 3-gun style compensator because it will help you control the rifle, flash hiders and many brakes dont do as much for shooting.
flip up sights are good for rear but its optional on the front.

for optics i would get a 1-4 power scope, lots of companies make them. make sure it is true 1-4 or 1 to whatever power and not a 1.5 or a 1.2 or a 1.1 power optic. Red dots are good too but they dont help you reach out and touch things as well as a scope. the only draw back of the 1-4x scopes is that they have a set eye relief and a set parallax (i think its usually set to 150 yards on most but i am guessing offhand here and dont know for sure, when you look at a scope it should tell you in the specs/technical info) unlike many red dots (lower end red dots are parallax free from 50 yards out and have an inch or less parallax error closer than 50/ high end units are labels parallax free because their error is so minute that it is its as if there is no error at all, you wont be able to tell) but the set parallax and restriction of having proper eye relief is a compromise that i think the magnification of the scope makes up for

as for grips, that is personal taste, i just grab the magazine well, i prefer the magpul angled fore grips better than the vertical style, of course you can hold the vertical style up in its pocket too...
its more effective to grab both the grip and fore-end together and not just the grip.

when i think all purpose, i think of the optic on it; that is why i recommended the optic that i did. if you do plan on using this for home defense then a red dot will work much better
i suggest getting a set of angled iron sights that fit on the gun at a 45 degree angle to use with the scope, that way you have the best of both worlds...

if you plan on using it for hunting, i suggest only using it for varmints and small predators. its not a big enough round, in my opinion, for hunting deer or putting food on the table. if you want to hunt deer get a upper chambered in 6.8 or a 30 caliber derivative

now for some specifics:
list of companies that make 1-4x optics:
Trijicon's Accupoints, Burris Tac30, Millet, Meopta Meostar, and Weaver to name a few (these are the most popular of the non insanely priced ones)
if you dont want to spend the money on the Accupoint then i would suggest the Burris Tac-30 (it is made in china though, if you can live with that, the price is right on it though and the word on the street is that it is good))

and get the best trigger you can afford!
JP makes an OUTSTANDING trigger and its easy to install, Geissele makes a bunch of nice triggers, AR GOLD trigger from PACT is outstanding but costs way too much (i have one and love it but it is not necessary), at the bottom of the triggers i wold suggest is Rock River Arm's National Match trigger (its a really good trigger for the money)
none of these triggers are bad and all seriously outperform a standard combat trigger.
i think the trigger is the most important part of a gun followed by the barrel/chamber/crown (all part of a good barrel)
i opted for the AR gold trigger (at 250 bucks ) because it was super easy to install and while i like it i would probably get the JP this time around because it is less expensive, although not as easy to install as the gold, it has a nifty installation procedure that is worth it)
(i am kind of a trigger snob though, i am picky and like em fairly light and crisp)

(here is what i built)
i posted it in another thead here recently... sorry about posting it more than once... i just like it a lot

hope i helped some!
(looks like my advice is a little different than Tirod's)

 

[merlinfire]

There's just so many options its a bit overwhelming.

What most of you are saying is more or less matching the image of the ar15 I had in my mind, except I hadn't thought about optic and trigger improvements. Good info there

 

[AlexanderA]

As a general rule, I would stick with military specs as much as possible (obviously leaving out the full-automatic capability). The military has tested the designs -- and has the field experience -- much more than any civilian. If something was that much better an idea, they would adopt it. Beware of untested hype. The gun industry is full of people trying to make a buck by flogging novelties.

 

[nastynatesfish]

i have the 16 and it shoots great. just did a trade for a 24" 204. i have the front grip on mine just to make it more comfortable. mines a dpms. i love it thats why i posted my other lower question instead of selling the upper

 

[jpwilly]

Something like the BCM MID-16 Mod 2

 

[nastynatesfish]

mine

this is the 204 mounted

 

[DougW]

I just keep building more rifles!

The closest to a "one do all" rifle is a 16" with a medium contour barrel and a 2X7 Viper scope I use for 3 gun matches. 3' to 300 yard rifle.

 

[chrome_austex]

An 18" barrel w/ rifle len gas system seems about right to me, but nothing particularly wrong with a 16" (mid length gas) or 20" barrel. A 20" HBAR is a bit slower to wield at close range, but its not such a big difference if your technique is solid and well practiced.

Consider a 16" lightweight build can be gripped at the magwell and more easily manipulated with the stock mounted at your shoulder, while a 20" heavy barrel will require your supporting hand forward on the handguard, and wont be easy to manipulate without unshouldering the gun.

As for forward grips, I find that its nice to have something to push or pull against, be it a handstop piece of rail, or forward grip. Take your pick. A simple handstop works well for me, and it doesn't catch easily on other pieces of gear or the environment.

Get a good trigger and sights/optics, they are the critical interface between you and your rifle. While simple irons are hard to beat (cheap, light, and functional), I do like 1-4x optics on a do-it-all AR, or a red dot for a <150y practical gun.

Compensators (as opposed to flash hiders or crowned barrels) can be obnoxiously loud to the people around you (but not all are equally loud), but they do facilitate rapid fire.

 

[mokin]

"Next time" I would go with a 16" barrel with a mid-length gas system in 6.8 SPC, some quality iron sights for the first year or so, then, if I felt the need, I'd start shopping for an optical sight. I'd leave the forearm clean until I had shot it enough to figure I had to have a vertical grip. Basically, my idea is that I can save money on accessories and spend it on ammunition. The carbine I have now doesn't have a vertical grip and I don't miss it. If this is your first build you will realize how modular this platform is and how easy it is to make modifications once you've finished.

 

[Welding Rod]

20" flat top would be my choice. HBAR if you are a target shooter, Gov profile if not. Add either an A1 stock or a Magpul CTR, and a light & crisp non-GI trigger and call it good.

 

[Rmiller31]

I recently built a "do all" AR. It's my only one and I researched it for several months.

First I would suggest not going with a stainless steel barrel for it. They are slightly
more accurate but you also going to Lose the ability to some types of ammo.

I went with a 16" chrome lined BCM midlength upper. I felt that it was a good length for most everything.

I would also recommend just using the stick trigger and finding out what you don't like about it before you drop money on a nice one. Some people like 2 stage triggers and some like a crisp single stage and some are fine with the stock trigger.

As for optics I wanted something with red dot type reticle at 1x that also had variable power for longer range shots. I've settled on a SWFA SS 1-4x variable. I do not have this yet but from all the reviews and pictures I've seen I'm loving it. The illuminated reticle is bright enough to be seen in bright daylight and it's design focuses your sight right where you want it.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

They are slightly more accurate but you also going to Lose the ability to some types of ammo.

Well, it is possible I misunderstand you since there appears to be a verb shortage in your sentence; but I can't think of any ammo restrictions that are going to be caused by using a stainless steel rifle barrel instead of a chrome-lined barrel. Could you explain that?

 

[Rmiller31]

My apologies, posted that after a long work day from my phone.

I have a couple buddies who can't use the cheap plinking ammo out of their SS match barrels. I'm assuming this has to do with the rifle being a match grade and wanting quality ammo. I could be wrong here and if I am someone please correct me.

 

[kwelz]

A Do all AR is a hard thing to make. It is full of compromises and wont' do any 1 thing very well. That being said I have one. It has a 16 inch Noveskle N4 Middy barrel for Accuracy and longevity and a 1/4 Accupopint on top. It is a bit slower at short range and a bit heavier than I would like. However it will serve everywhere from 10-400 yards.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I have a couple buddies who can't use the cheap plinking ammo out of their SS match barrels. I'm assuming this has to do with the rifle being a match grade and wanting quality ammo.

My guess is that it mostly has to do with the way the chamber is cut. Steel cases expand more slowly (microseconds more; but still slower) than brass and are also slower to retract from the chamber walls. Match chambers are typically cut tighter in order to aid precision. I'm guessing that your buddies are seeing stuck cases or cases where the rim bends/extractor slips and the empty is lying in the chamber because the combination of slower extraction and tighter space causes the timing to be off slightly.

Since SS is easier to machine, it is often used in match barrels and often has match chambers that are fairly tight as the customer is usually more concerned about tiny groups than being able to plink with steel case ammo.

I don't have any problems with steel cased ammo in my own SS match barrel; but it also has a hybrid chamber with a longer throat. A heavier buffer or stiffer action spring might help your buddies by delaying the cycle a small amount and giving the case more time to retract (assuming that they are having the same problem I described above).

 

[Rmiller31]

Yup it was extraction of steel cased ammo your right. Thanks for the clarification on that.

 

[txgunsuscg]

For an "all-around" gun, I would recommend a simple 16 inch AR with a rail and good optic (Aimpoint or EOTech). BCM has good ones, as does Stag, Colt, or a host of others. I personally like foregrips, as they help me with recoil management.