AR Lowers to SBR

[giggitygiggity]

Hi, I am debating picking up a couple Anderson AR lowers and submitting Form 1's before 41F takes effect. With regards to the lowers, I see some are sold as rifle lowers and others are sold as pistol lowers. What do I need to be cognizant about with this regard? I suspect that if it is a pistol lower, I could SBR it and later on convert it to a pistol form whereas the rifle lower can only be converted to a rifle after SBRing. Or once a lower is SBR'd, regardless of whether it originated as a pistol or rifle, is it fair game for me to convert it to SBR, rifle, or pistol as I choose?

I don't plan on selling any of them and I doubt I'd return to a pistol or rifle form once SBR'd, but I am asking so that I can make an informed decision and know the pros and cons. Thanks!

 

[griff383]

A lower is a lower regardless of what the engraving says, the only markings that matter are the ones that are required for an SBR. There was debate about this and the caliber markings for quite some time but as long as you meet the criteria for making an SBR your good to go

 

[pjeski]

Registering a lower on a form 1 does not make it an SBR. Building it as an SBR does.

Look at the definition of an SBR.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

 

[Jackal]

It is my understanding that AR lowers should be transferred as "other firearm" in general, since it is neither a pistol or rifle yet.

 

[giggitygiggity]

A lower is a lower regardless of what the engraving says, the only markings that matter are the ones that are required for an SBR. There was debate about this and the caliber markings for quite some time but as long as you meet the criteria for making an SBR your good to go

I understand that as far as SBRs are concerned, a lower is a lower. Perhaps I need to ask the question better... Legally, an AR lower is a firearm, hence why they must be bought through an FFL. ARs can come in two flavors: pistols and rifles. You can make an SBR by adding a stock to the pistol or by reducing the barrel length on a rifle and I get that to make an SBR, the ATF doesn't care whether you're slapping a stock onto a pistol or shortening the barrel on a rifle. Rifle or pistol, that lower is now registered as an SBR (yes, not technically an SBR until the hardware is added/removed/changed, but you have the ATF's permission to make the SBR applied for in the Form 1).

Let's not even talk about NFA for a second... For lowers sold as pistol lowers, wouldn't they be treated just like any other pistol and lowers sold as rifle lowers be treated just like every other rifle? Granted a lower is a lower from a practical standpoint, but in the ATF's eyes, wouldn't an AR pistol lower be sold, bought, and fall under the same laws and regulations as all other pistols and a rifle lower be sold, bought, and fall under the same laws and regulations as all other rifles?

Or do lower receivers fall into their own classification until stocks and barrels are added to them? In particular, I am talking about stripped lower receivers.

I guess the question does not even have to involve SBRs. The question is whether the stripped lower receivers that I'm talking about need to be treated as pistols if the pistol lowers are bought and treated as rifles if the rifle lowers are bought. For instance, I recall hearing that one can make a pistol into a rifle, but cannot make a rifle into a pistol unless that rifle started life as a pistol. Therefore, it would make more sense to buy the pistol lower and have the flexibility to go back and forth between rifle and pistol if I should choose. On the other hand, pistols tend to be more regulated and have different, usually slightly more restrictive laws concerning their purchase, sale, and use.

Thanks for the replies. It is confusing. I hope my question makes sense. Thanks!

 

[pjeski]

Let's not even talk about NFA for a second... For lowers sold as pistol lowers, wouldn't they be treated just like any other pistol and lowers sold as rifle lowers be treated just like every other rifle? Granted a lower is a lower from a practical standpoint, but in the ATF's eyes, wouldn't an AR pistol lower be sold, bought, and fall under the same laws and regulations as all other pistols and a rifle lower be sold, bought, and fall under the same laws and regulations as all other rifles?

A lower is a lower. If it has not been built as a pistol or a rifle, it is nothing but a receiver. It can only be sold as a receiver, not a pistol or a rifle and it does not matter what it is marked. Even if it is what appears to be a complete "rifle lower" with a stock, if it has never been barreled, it is not a rifle and can be made into a pistol.

Or do lower receivers fall into their own classification until stocks and barrels are added to them? In particular, I am talking about stripped lower receivers.

Yes, this.

I guess the question does not even have to involve SBRs. The question is whether the stripped lower receivers that I'm talking about need to be treated as pistols if the pistol lowers are bought and treated as rifles if the rifle lowers are bought. For instance, I recall hearing that one can make a pistol into a rifle, but cannot make a rifle into a pistol unless that rifle started life as a pistol. Therefore, it would make more sense to buy the pistol lower and have the flexibility to go back and forth between rifle and pistol if I should choose. On the other hand, pistols tend to be more regulated and have different, usually slightly more restrictive laws concerning their purchase, sale, and use.

Thanks for the replies. It is confusing. I hope my question makes sense. Thanks!

What you heard about pistol into a rifle and not vice versa is true:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

What you have to understand is that a receiver cannot be sold as a pistol or a rifle. In general, weapons aren't defined by what they are registered as, what they are marked, or what they are sold as. They are defined by what they are and what they have been.

 

[Theohazard]

Pjeski is spot-on. As far as the feds are concerned, there is no such thing as a pistol lower or a rifle lower. It's just a lower. The seller marks "other firearm" on the 4473 and then writes "receiver". Even if your lower comes with a stock, it's still just a receiver.

 

[giggitygiggity]

Sounds good! Thanks for clarifying that for me.

 

[Aaron Baker]

To further clarify on the correct information that has so far been provided:

A stripped lower receiver becomes either a pistol or a rifle when you build it as such. If you build it as a rifle first, it cannot ever become a pistol. (Ignoring the NFA for now.)

Now, if you build a stripped lower into a pistol, then you can add a stock and make it a rifle, and then later remove the stock and make it a pistol again. (And a pistol can have a 16" or longer barrel.)

So...

If you buy a receiver, it's best to build it as a pistol first, because then if you don't ever make it into an SBR, you can make it into either a rifle or pistol as you please at any time.

This is as simple as installing the 16"+ barreled upper and bare receiver tube BEFORE adding the stock. Then it has been a pistol, at least temporarily, before it was ever a rifle. (Some folks might even take a photo to document this, although frankly, I can't see it ever being necessary as evidence.)

If you put on the stock BEFORE you put on the barreled upper, it's a rifle first, and can only ever be a rifle. (Unless it becomes an SBR.)

Hope that info helps.

Aaron

 

[giggitygiggity]

Thanks for the good info. I have a few additional SBR questions... if I submit a Form 1 to turn my receiver into a, let's say .223 SBR with a 10.5" barrel, and then I change my mind after the tax stamp is approved and want to build a .300BLK with a 7.5" barrel, is this permissable or would I have to submit a separate Form 1? Is it legal to have one SBR receiver be the host to different calibers and barrel lengths?

 

[Elkins45]

Thanks for the good info. I have a few additional SBR questions... if I submit a Form 1 to turn my receiver into a, let's say .223 SBR with a 10.5" barrel, and then I change my mind after the tax stamp is approved and want to build a .300BLK with a 7.5" barrel, is this permissable or would I have to submit a separate Form 1? Is it legal to have one SBR receiver be the host to different calibers and barrel lengths?

Once you have an approved lower you can slap any upper you want of any compatible caliber on it legally, so long as you retain the ability to return it to the original configuration.

I have been told you can even change your mind, as in your question, so long as you send the ATF a letter informing them of the change in configuration---but I am less certain of that than I am of the info on multiple uppers.

 

[Aaron Baker]

Elkins45 is correct.

There are two considerations: what the ATF wants and what is legally required.

On the question of what is legal, the registration of an AR15 lower receiver as a short-barreled rifle allows you to put an upper of any caliber and any barrel length on it.

On the question of what the ATF wants, they say that as long as you keep the original configuration upper available, you can have as many other uppers in whatever calibers and lengths you want. If you get rid of the original upper, the ATF wants to be made aware of a change in the "permanent" configuration.

Here's the way I look at this: if you apply for a tax stamp for a 10.5" barrel .223 SBR, and before you decide to do the build (and after the tax stamp is approved), you decide to do an 11" .300 BLK instead... then you should do what the ATF asks and send them a letter telling them that there's be a permanent change to the configuration for that SBR, and give them the new length and caliber.

Keeping them updated like that allows them to keep the NFA registry up to date, so that their data matches the actual "permanent" configuration of the SBR.

Of course, if you just have extra uppers, but have the original configuration available to swap back on at any time, the ATF doesn't want or need to know anything.

Aaron

 

[pdsmith505]

Keep in mind that the NFA was written prior to the modularity that we now enjoy with firearms.

"I think today I want to shoot 7.62x54R instead of .308 Winchester... just let me press the barrel out of the receiver and install my other barrel with the correct headspace real quick."

vs

"I feel like shooting .300 BLK today. Let me push two pins and swap out the upper real quick."

I don't think the NFA was written to address such modularity, and thus doesn't contain any language that addresses it.

I could, however, be wrong. There could be examples of firearms that would quickly change calibers from that era.

 

[yugorpk]

You do not need to keep the original parts to put it back in the listed configuration. They would like you to tell them so they can update the registry but there is no legal requirement compelling you to do that nor is there an official form that would even allow you to do that. They want you to write them a letter. How official does that sound? .

 

[giggitygiggity]

Now the other question I have is with regards to engraving... I know that there is no engraving requirement if you purchase a preconfigured SBR, but what about one that you build yourself? This seems to be an area in which everyone has their own idea (no engraving required, as long as there is already a manufacturer and S/N on the receiver you're good, you have to engrave your/your trust's name and assign a new S/N, etc)? What is the right answer? My apologies for all the questions. I do appreciate everyone's help!

 

[yugorpk]

You must engrave your makers mark, city , state and caliber if its not there already. Doesnt have to be on the receiver but it has to be conspicuous ( Not under the handguard if on the barrel ) . Makers mark would be your name if as an individual or trust name if as a trust. If you start from an 80 % blank or even a block of metal you need to put a serial number on there too which would be listed on your form 1.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply wrong.

 

[pjeski]

Now the other question I have is with regards to engraving... I know that there is no engraving requirement if you purchase a preconfigured SBR, but what about one that you build yourself? This seems to be an area in which everyone has their own idea (no engraving required, as long as there is already a manufacturer and S/N on the receiver you're good, you have to engrave your/your trust's name and assign a new S/N, etc)? What is the right answer? My apologies for all the questions. I do appreciate everyone's help!

You do not create a new serial number if there is already one there. You use the one that is already on the receiver.

 

[dogtown tom]

giggitygiggity .....This seems to be an area in which everyone has their own idea (no engraving required, as long as there is already a manufacturer and S/N on the receiver you're good...

Anyone who says there is no need to engrave a Form 1 firearm should never be consulted about firearms again.

ATF regs are darned clear on the marking requirements for the maker of an NFA firearm.

 

[Ryanxia]

Giggity - you know what is super helpful is the Sticky thread in the NFA section. Aaron Baker created it and it is spot on. Really worth reading through, the engraving requirements is spelled out towards the bottom but the whole thing is worth perusing through.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=733393

 

[giggitygiggity]

That's a great Sticky Thread. I should have checked that out first! Very informative. I do still have one question regarding the engraving and forgive me if it's already been answered:

Knowing that "MULTI-CALIBER" is not acceptable on a Form 1, if I buy a receiver says "MULTI-CALIBER" and my Form 1 states that I will be building a .223REM, am I required to engrave ".223REM" onto the receiver or is the caliber covered under the "MULTI-CALIBER"? What about if the receiver as it comes from the manufacturer lists ".223REM", but my Form 1 is to have the primary SBR configuration as a .300BLK, will I also need to engrave ".300BLK" onto that receiver?

 

[yugorpk]

Somewhere on the gun eithe ron the receiver or the barrel you need to have the caliber designation you have on the form 1 engraved . After that your'e on your own. Not that anyone EVER checks but better to cross t's and dot the i's for a little peace of mind if you are the worrying type.

 

[Ryanxia]

Knowing that "MULTI-CALIBER" is not acceptable on a Form 1, if I buy a receiver says "MULTI-CALIBER" and my Form 1 states that I will be building a .223REM, am I required to engrave ".223REM" onto the receiver or is the caliber covered under the "MULTI-CALIBER"? What about if the receiver as it comes from the manufacturer lists ".223REM", but my Form 1 is to have the primary SBR configuration as a .300BLK, will I also need to engrave ".300BLK" onto that receiver?

You will need to have the serial number engraved somewhere on the gun. If your barrel is already engraved .223 you are all set, same if you put a a .300BLK upper on your SBR, as long as the barrel is engraved you are all set.

There is another recent thread that was discussed at length regarding when you put a free float rail or similar accessory over the barrel covering the engraving so some folks will also engrave the caliber on their receiver. I do not. Thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=803406 about half way down the discussion starts.

 

[Theohazard]

I just want to add to the correct information that Yugo and Ryanxia posted: Keep in mind that the caliber is almost always marked on a barrel. So chances are that any barrel you put on your SBR will already be marked and so you'll be good to go with the caliber markings. Obviously it's still a good idea to check just in case you have the rare barrel that doesn't have a caliber mark.

 

[Elkins45]

That's a great Sticky Thread. I should have checked that out first! Very informative. I do still have one question regarding the engraving and forgive me if it's already been answered:

Knowing that "MULTI-CALIBER" is not acceptable on a Form 1, if I buy a receiver says "MULTI-CALIBER" and my Form 1 states that I will be building a .223REM, am I required to engrave ".223REM" onto the receiver or is the caliber covered under the "MULTI-CALIBER"? What about if the receiver as it comes from the manufacturer lists ".223REM", but my Form 1 is to have the primary SBR configuration as a .300BLK, will I also need to engrave ".300BLK" onto that receiver?

All the AR barrels I have purchased already have the caliber engraved on them. Unless yours doesn't there's no need to engrave it on the lower.

Personally I engraved ALL my required NFA on my barrels because my registered lower is a somewhat valuable Colt that I didn't want to deface. If it were a $50 Anderson then I wouldn't care.

 

[pdsmith505]

Consider the engraving requirements:

ATF 5300.4 in 27 CFR 479.102 (page 92) describes what is necessary
to engrave on a SBR or SBS when one is manufacturing. This is not necessary
if you purchase one that is already manufactured as it will have been done for
you.


1) On the Frame or Receiver the Serial number;

2) on the frame, receiver, or barrel the following additional information;

   A)The model;

   B)The caliber or gage;

   C)Your name or name of the Trust in the case of a Trust (no abbreviations
     are permitted for the Trust name);

   D)The city and state (you can abbreviate the state with the official 2 digit
     state code)

The above mentioned information must be engraved, casted, stamped (impressing) or otherwise conspicuously placed or caused to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size of the Serial number shall be no smaller than 1/16 inch.

I don't see why you couldn't engrave the caliber on the upper reciever. Eliminates the risk of the caliber on the barrel being obscured by a handguard, and serves as a reminder ot the user what upper is currently on the rifle.