AR pistol or not

[GRIZ22]

Olympus, a stock on a 10" AR makes a world of difference in utility of the weapon without adding much bulk compared to an AR pistol. Have you seen an AR pistol that wasn't way nose heavy? You brought up ballistics. A 10" with a 55 gr 223 still gets you 2600 fps. Cut that barrel to about 6" and it's down to 2000 fps.

Can you hurt something with an AR pistol? Sure. You can also hurt someone with a single barrel 12 ga with the barrel cut to 6" and the stock replaced with a pistol grip. The ergonomics of that shotgun and an AR pistol are about the same if you want to hit something at a little bit of range.

 

[Olympus]

Olympus, a stock on a 10" AR makes a world of difference in utility of the weapon without adding much bulk compared to an AR pistol. Have you seen an AR pistol that wasn't way nose heavy? You brought up ballistics. A 10" with a 55 gr 223 still gets you 2600 fps. Cut that barrel to about 6" and it's down to 2000 fps.

Can you hurt something with an AR pistol? Sure. You can also hurt someone with a single barrel 12 ga with the barrel cut to 6" and the stock replaced with a pistol grip. The ergonomics of that shotgun and an AR pistol are about the same if you want to hit something at a little bit of range.

But we're talking apples to apples here, so comparing a 10.5" to a barrel much less shorter is not a valid comparison.

And the weight of a basic collapsible stock and the weight of a brace are not a lot different, so I don't buy the argument that a pistol is more muzzle heavy. Now it very well could be with only a pistol tube. But we're talking about a pistol with some type of brace versus a traditional collapsible stock.

You completely missed my point regarding ballistics. You changed your point based on a shorter barrel, which I never said. My point about ballistics: they are exactly the same from a 10.5" pistol and a 10.5" SBR. Using a brace or using a stock makes no difference to the bullet.

Now your shotgun comment makes very little sense to me. An AR pistol or SBR is probably not the best choice in general if you're trying to engage targets at "a little bit of range" like you say. SBRs are designed for CQB, and the average Joe Forum-Member probably isn't going to be doing a lot of CQB in his/her lifetime.

 

[Fishbed77]

A 10.5" AR pistol with a Shockwave Blade is a range toy while a 10.5" AR SBR with a stock is a serious weapon? Does the bullet coming out of the barrel know whether the gun has a stock or a brace? Does adding the stock and paying the tax stamp play a part on terminal ballistics? I just have to laugh when someone tries to say an AR pistol is a "range toy".
__________________

THIS.^

 

[AK103K]

Now that thing is downright cool. If I ever had the desire to own a backpack AR, I would do this!! I think I would bite the bullet and pay the $200 for the stamp though. Cheap insurance to keep from getting in trouble since I see no way of really effectively using this as a pistol.

The folder is nice, and well made, but it is salty(I got mine on sale at Brownell's for $240. They list for close to $300). If I didnt have some money left over when I was doing the builds, I probably would not have spent the extra for it.

If you get one, and shoot "nose to the charging handle", watch your teeth.

A 10.5" AR pistol with a Shockwave Blade is a range toy while a 10.5" AR SBR with a stock is a serious weapon? Does the bullet coming out of the barrel know whether the gun has a stock or a brace? Does adding the stock and paying the tax stamp play a part on terminal ballistics? I just have to laugh when someone tries to say an AR pistol is a "range toy".

THIS.^

I agree. It makes no sense, and obviously, someone who says it, has little if any experience with one.

 

[orionengnr]

Nope, not for me.
An 8" barrel, suppressed SBR in .300BLK?
Yep.

 

[Sam1911]

Does adding the stock and paying the tax stamp play a part on terminal ballistics?

Nope. But it sure makes a huge difference in how fast you can put bullets, where.




(No, not "YOU" you, of course. Other people. The ones I've met and shot with, with a timer in my hand.)

 

[AK103K]

Nope. But it sure makes a huge difference in how fast you can put bullets, where.

A lot depends on how youre shooting the gun too.

Were those shooters you were watching, using a cheek weld and even better, along with a sling? Or were they trying to shoot the gun like a "pistol"? Makes a BIG difference. Optics like a good red dot also make things easier.

If the AR pistol (or any of this type for that matter) interests you, Id suggest checking out Gabe Suarez's Warrior Talk site. Hes done a lot of work with these and as well as others, AK's, etc, and seems to have been having good results with them.

Ive found I can shoot mine damn near as well as my 16" and 20" AR's. Sure, with a stock its a little easier, but its really not all that hard to shoot the pistols well, and quickly, when you use a cheek weld on the tube and with a sling. Ive had no troubles making snap shots and quick multiple shots randomly alternating between targets from 10-15, out to 100 yards with them, and all of that is starting from a low ready and shooting offhand.

 

[Olympus]

Nope. But it sure makes a huge difference in how fast you can put bullets, where.




(No, not "YOU" you, of course. Other people. The ones I've met and shot with, with a timer in my hand.)

A lot depends on what you're doing with the gun. Are you trying to compete in a 3-gun match using a pistol? Probably not.

But as a home defense gun, I guarantee I can make a pistol with a brace attached run as fast an accurate as I can an SBR.

The speed at which a pistol can be used to put rounds on target is only limited by the ATF's opinion on how the brace can legally be used. But anyone who regurgitates the saying that an AR pistol is simply a range toy gets a laugh from me, because that's just flat incorrect.

 

[Tirod]

Is the AR pistol a potential HD weapon, yes. Those unfamiliar with it's use are the only ones questioning it. It has it's advantages:

Short length - they average about 26" and that's an advantage in a 30" hallway where a shotgun or MSR like the HK91 simply can't go sideways in a transition. If you are herding family down the hall a long gun only hangs up the process even more, especially when they are in panic and there's been zero rehearsal.

High capacity - no doubt a duty/service double stack handgun carries a lot - up to 19 rounds. And it is the first line of what I still consider to be a failed outer defense. An AR pistol? 30-60 rounds depending on mag capacity. Or more with a light six mag chest harness.

Firepower - with that much ammo you can put down a hail of suppressive fire to allow your family to move out the back door - or a safe room that you have made intruder proof and bullet proof. It lacks either quality - just get out. Suppressive fire is as easy as pulling the trigger repeatedly, and if you want even more, a binary trigger can double the rate of fire. It's the legal version of full auto - which the military SBR's have used from day one.

5.56 - your choice of cartridge is out there, .300BO and 6.8SPC are just two alternates. Nonetheless, 5.56 has advantages - cheap practice ammo and proven MK262 which is the preferred service round in the MK18/CQBR. It's 70 gr OTM with advanced low flash powder and what a team would use boarding ships or clearing an apartment. That team could very well be YOUR local SWAT team coming it to clean out the intruders. It's interesting to consider that while some think the AR pistol is inadequate the police prefer it when possible as the go to gun for rescuing homeowners. They have the inexpensive privilege of retaining the stock, is all.

Ease of use - this should be a no brainer, if you shoot an AR, then the same controls in the same place will help under stress in a violent situation. Choosing a different firearm for a worst case situation only complicates things exactly when you don't need it. The AR is easy to reload - the bolt hold open is a major advantage. You don't have to rack it with a loaded mag inserted, only to discover the mag falling out because the catch didn't quite engage. Weapons that require you to rack a gun with the mag inserted are not professional grade for a very good reason in the first world. We can afford better more advanced designs.

Penetration - whichever cartridge you choose, expect that it can and will go thru sheetrock construction. It will - the internet video tubes are full of ammo tests. None of it is low penetration and that is an underinformed fantasy goal perpetuated by well meaning but uninformed new shooters. You WANT the ammo to go thru the barriers your opponents think they can hide behind - you may only get the one opportunity to hit them and it won't be wasted when the bullets exit the wall or furniture. They can and will - plan accordingly and know what your lanes of fire will likely be. Don't shelter your family directly behind you, either, as they become part of the backstop of rounds fired at you. Perps don't choose low penetration ammo and could care less at the moment they discharge it. Again, it goes to hiding in a safe room - it needs to be bullet PROOF to keep them in there. Better to go out the back and run. It defeats the intrusion and puts them on the defensive in an unknown situation where they are exiting against backlight. Use it.

Point being, if someone chooses any firearm for home defense, whatever it is, there is a lot more to consider than the security blanket of simply owning it. And to reinforce an earlier point - once the intruder gets in the front door, it's ample evidence of complete failure on the part of the homeowner to prevent it. Focusing on the gun is focusing on failure of an appropriate defense. The thugs should never have gotten to the door or thru it. Dogs, fencing, lighting, driveway alarms, security construction, break resistant glass - which brings up the question: if you have to improve your home defenses to the point it's nearing crack house SWAT team effort to get in, you could always move to a better neighborhood. Take a bath on the bad choice of living where you are now, because you could easily spend that and more trying to armor yourself against them.

That's what most Americans who think thru it do - and then the AR pistol is just that fun range toy you take out to quietly practice where you can, with the neighbors clueless about your defenses. And you sleep better at night.

My house isn't even locked at night, and the worst varmint is a raccoon pilfering the bird feeder. I got out.

 

[Olympus]

Another role that the AR pistol is quickly filling is as a dedicated hunting weapon. My state has a seperate whitetail season where pistols are allowed. An AR pistol in 300BLK or 6.8 had received a huge surge in popularity. It gives me another week of deer season.

AR pistols only good for range toys...give me a break!

 

[Sam1911]

The speed at which a pistol can be used to put rounds on target is only limited by the ATF's opinion on how the brace can legally be used.

And that's really the hangup. If you're able to shoulder it and use it as a rifle. Stabilize it as the gun's ergonomics, sights, and layout were designed to be used, then it is a very effective weapon.

You can get there with the SBR route, obviously.
You can get there with some of the alternative "brace/stabilizer" ideas -- quite effectively -- but currently that is somewhere between skirting and flat out breaking the law. Sigh.

You can sort of get close with the single-point sling tension method. With a lot of practice, I agree it isn't worthless, and if you have time to get the sling on and set you can do the push/pull thing and make hits pretty quickly. Not as well as with a stock. Not as fast. But better.

Absent those? Holding the stockless quasi-rifle out there in your meat paws? No. This is defending your LIFE and that of your family. Choose a gun that you've PROVED you can make the most accurate hits with, fastest. And that's probably going to be a conventionally stocked carbine, shotgun, or a handgun.

EDIT: For further clarification, I direct all to the sorely missed Dave McCracken's wonderful thread on "PGO" weapons, and his infamous and un-met challenge set forth therin -- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465 Yes, he was specifically discussing shotguns, but the results don't change when you switch from nine projectiles to one at a time.

But anyone who regurgitates the saying that an AR pistol is simply a range toy gets a laugh from me, because that's just flat incorrect.

And again we're at the problem of everyone assuming that the other guy means the same thing "I" mean when speaking. If you say "an AR pistol is simply a range toy" PERIOD, then sure that's incorrect. With the right accessories so that you can use one as a carbine, they are not merely a casual plinking toy.

But it is just as inappropriate to say, "an AR pistol makes a great home defense weapon" PERIOD, because that leaves the reader with the (assumedly false) idea that you mean that statement to include bare-bones, stockless, iron-sighted, versions. It's just as incomplete a statement as "they're just range toys."

 

[Sam1911]

Is the AR pistol a potential HD weapon, yes.

"Potentially"? Yes. See my previous post. They potentially are good home defense weapons. Universally? Commonly? No.

Those unfamiliar with it's use are the only ones questioning it.

Careful making blanket statements like that. Some of us pointing out the pitfalls have plenty of experience with them. Lack of understanding is NOT why some of us hesitate to recommend them. In fact, quite the opposite.

It has it's advantages:

Ok, let's talk about them.

Short length - they average about 26" and that's an advantage in a 30" hallway ...

Not many 30" wide hallways out there. Building code doesn't allow that.
And an average "M4-gery" has a collapsed length only 3" longer than your average 26" guess. So that's really not that big a deal.

High capacity - no doubt a duty/service double stack handgun carries a lot - up to 19 rounds. And it is the first line of what I still consider to be a failed outer defense. An AR pistol? 30-60 rounds depending on mag capacity. Or more with a light six mag chest harness.

Do we really believe -- even a little bit -- that 30-60 rounds and a flippin' chest harness of six more mags is something that's a realistic requirement for average Joe (non-coke-dealing) homeowner to defend the split-level rancher? You know, most folks sleep mighty well with an old 870 and 5-7 shells on tap. Let's not get hung up on making home-defense look like combat, or be a gear race.

Firepower - with that much ammo you can put down a hail of suppressive fire to allow your family to move out the back door - or a safe room that you have made intruder proof and bullet proof. It lacks either quality - just get out. Suppressive fire is as easy as pulling the trigger repeatedly, and if you want even more, a binary trigger can double the rate of fire. It's the legal version of full auto - which the military SBR's have used from day one.

Good heavens! You're talking about using SUPPRESSIVE FIRE in a civilian, peace-time, defensive shooting? Did I miss a "winky" smiley somewhere?

5.56 - your choice of cartridge is out there, .300BO and 6.8SPC are just two alternates. Nonetheless, 5.56 has advantages - cheap practice ammo and proven MK262 which is the preferred service round in the MK18/CQBR. It's 70 gr OTM with advanced low flash powder and what a team would use boarding ships or clearing an apartment. That team could very well be YOUR local SWAT team coming it to clean out the intruders. It's interesting to consider that while some think the AR pistol is inadequate the police prefer it when possible as the go to gun for rescuing homeowners. They have the inexpensive privilege of retaining the stock, is all.

But cartridge is -- really, truly, seriously, come-on-now-we-know-this-right? -- pretty darned irrelevant in defensive shootings. 5.56 works, and might have decent non-penetration characteristics, but it's nothing to get even a little hung up about. 9mm works. .45 ACP works. 12 or 20 gauge shells work. And the differences in what they accomplish, if they get to the target, are pretty darned equivalent. Cartridge debates are pretty juvenile, though they're mainstay staples of forums and gun counters, of course.

Ease of use - this should be a no brainer, if you shoot an AR, then the same controls in the same place will help under stress in a violent situation.

And without a stock, those controls are much less friendly to use. Compared to a stocked rifle or a handgun, "running" a stockless AR pistol is an awkward affair indeed. It isn't how the gun was designed to work with the human body.

The AR is easy to reload - the bolt hold open is a major advantage. You don't have to rack it with a loaded mag inserted, only to discover the mag falling out because the catch didn't quite engage. Weapons that require you to rack a gun with the mag inserted are not professional grade for a very good reason in the first world. We can afford better more advanced designs.

What are you comparing it against? What common service handguns DON'T hold the bolt open on an empty mag?

And, have you ever done a tactical reload of your AR (or anything else)? Was the bolt open? No? Hmmm. Seems like a tempest in a teapot.

 

[kBob]

Sam, Sam, Sam,

Haven't you learned yet? AR15s of any flavor are in fact MAGICAL.

You know that good small unit leaders never bother to dramatically pantomime checking to see an AR mag is seated before going around that corner, through that door, or out of that vehicle!

You know none of us have ever seen mags fall out at embarrassing times, either from troopers not seating them well or from troopies brushing up against things with the mag release button even on fenced receiver models.

Why none of us old farts know a thing about knew fangled AR pistols, I mean its not like they are all that much like an XM-177 (Car-15) with stock collapsed (or a 10.5 inch with stock collapsed) , or a firing port weapon or say a Leder 5.56 pistol or even one of those Original Olympic AR pistols three decades back that the ATF got upset over.

Not one of us EVER went through 30 inch doorways with an M-1 or M-14! We had to stick around outside while guys with pistols and grenades cleared houses, don't you know? We were helpless without weapons like AR-pistols back then!

We are all just senile old crumudgeons, after all.

Sarcasm, OFF.

-kBob

 

[tarosean]

Firepower - with that much ammo you can put down a hail of suppressive fire to allow your family to move out the back door - or a safe room that you have made intruder proof and bullet proof. It lacks either quality - just get out. Suppressive fire is as easy as pulling the trigger repeatedly, and if you want even more, a binary trigger can double the rate of fire. It's the legal version of full auto - which the military SBR's have used from day one.

Good heavens! You're talking about using SUPPRESSIVE FIRE in a civilian, peace-time, defensive shooting? Did I miss a "winky" smiley somewhere?

Now I have a pretty vivid imagination. Yet I am struggling to come up with a scenario, in my home, that would warrant such a tactic. Course I also dont have a Grand Foyer and 100yrd hallways either. maybe thats why

 

[Olympus]

Haven't you learned yet? AR15s of any flavor are in fact MAGICAL.

Not one of us EVER went through 30 inch doorways with an M-1 or M-14! We had to stick around outside while guys with pistols and grenades cleared houses, don't you know? We were helpless without weapons like AR-pistols back then!

And you can drive a nail with a sledehammer if that's all you've got at the time, but it wouldn't be the best tool for that job.

And I disagree that a qualifier needs to be present when someone talks about an AR pistol being a range toy. That's just flat wrong no matter how you slice it. Lot of deer being taken in my state with AR pistols, stabilizing brace or not. They are legitimate hunting firearms among other uses. It's time to stop perpetuating this "range toy" myth. The time of the 7.5" 5.56 AR with a pistol tube only is over. The AR pistol has evolved and now it's time for people's opinions of them to do the same.

 

[Sam1911]

I would not argue that it is unreasonable to hunt with an AR pistol, given proper bullets for the game sought. Hunters have long used large handguns for those purposes, and know exactly how to find and use suitable rests, and how to take the time they need to stabilize a precise pistol shot at an animal.

That's a far cry from any defensive use, which seems to be what we're mostly talking about here, in this thread, responding to the OP's actual questions.

A 10" barreled, scoped, .44 Magnum revolver makes a wonderful hunting weapon and a very poor home (or self-) defense arm. The same techniques which make it a very good hunting gun also can make a (similarly unwieldy) stockless AR-15 perform well in the hunting fields.

So, if you feel it is important to argue that an AR-15 isn't "just a range toy" because it can also be used for some hunting purposes, that's fine by me, and I'll join you in upholding that exception.

Is that the "evolved" common ground you were looking for?

 

[Olympus]

For home defense, I guarantee I can be just as quick and accurate with an AR pistol and brace as I can an SBR. How can I guarantee that? I own both, a pistol and an SBR. Distances inside most homes are fairly short. And I doubt there will be an ATF agent hiding under my bed with a tape measure to see how close that brace comes to my shoulder. Holding a brace an inch or two away from the shoulder is perfectly legal.

A 7.5" AR pistol in 300 Blackout would make an excellent home defensive gun in my opinion.

 

[AK103K]

Despite all the apparent dislike and nay saying, like anything else, the only real way to know whats actually going to work for you, is to pick one up, and put some realistic time in with it.

What may not work for some, may be just the ticket for others, but only hands on use and experimentation will prove it one way on the other.


On a positive note, or at least for me, standing in the carport last night, I popped a bunny at 50 yards in the garden using the AR above with the suppressor. Guess what? Hes graveyard dead.

 

[stchman]

An AR pistol as a HD gun IMO would not be that great an idea. The .223/5.56 round would go through many walls and if you live in a subdivision, you could be shooting holes in your neighbor's house.

A 9mm pistol with hollow points or an HD shotgun would be a better alternative.

 

[Olympus]

An AR pistol as a HD gun IMO would not be that great an idea. The .223/5.56 round would go through many walls and if you live in a subdivision, you could be shooting holes in your neighbor's house.

A 9mm pistol with hollow points or an HD shotgun would be a better alternative.

223/556 is not the only round that can be used in an AR pistol.

 

[Jesse H]

I don't like shooting my 11.5" SBR at an outdoor range unsuppressed under the canopy without doubling up on ears. I can't imagine a shorter barrel, indoors, without ears.

 

[AK103K]

I can't imagine a shorter barrel, indoors, without ears.

I really cant imagine them indoors "with" a suppressor, but I guess its still better than unsuppressed.

My 10.5" AR's are not bad with the suppressor on the gun, but they are a tad louder. I still wear ear plugs with any of them can or not. A few rounds without them really isnt bad, but 50, 100 rounds, and I can definitely feel/notice it.