AR piston versus DI - an honest debate

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breakingcontact, you didn't answer the question. how exactly are they better considering there isn't any standardization?

many of us do keep spares on hand to fix failures. i haven't needed any to date, and the reality is that if i did, i could go to the local shop or even a friend's house and make a trade to replenish those spares. remember two is one, one is none. there are so many DI guns out there and all the parts are interchangeable provided they are in spec. you simply can't do that with a piston gun.
 
"DI runs great if it's properly lubed". Awesome. One itty bitty problem. It also tends to burn off lube at a relatively high rate (worse the shorter the barrel) compared to piston operated guns. Does this really matter if one only pops off a few hundred rounds at the local range? Of course not. On the other hand, if one is posted at a FOB on an Afghan mountain, miles from support, and has to repel a protracted attempt to over run the base, stopping to lube just might pose a problem.

The situation being described sounds eerily similar to the 2008 incident at Wanat. Lots of folks thought the loss of American lives was attributed to the M4/M16 family being an inferior firearm not fit for the job. The AARs seemed to simply reinforce the notion that the M4/M16 family can and will fail if it is being used in the same manner as a belt-fed machine gun, which is to say, a sustained rate of fire far outside the operating specs of the carbine/rifle themselves.

Of course, shoving a short stroke piston won't magically give it the same sustained fire capabilities as a belt-fed LMG.
 
Very interesting how there are now AR15 purists. Same type of people who resisted the AR15 in the first place I'm sure. Times change folks, things improve. If you don't consider it an improvement, great, but don't hate it. I like AR15s but still like M1As. A piston AR15 that proves reliable, to me, is a better gun than a DI gun, but a DI gun is not a bad gun.

Actually the forward piston AR isn't at all a new design. Way back in the 1960s ArmaLite released an updated and economized AR - the AR-18, a piston AR with stamped steel receivers. They hoped the military would replace the AR-15/M16 with it but it didn't go over so well!

I don't hate the new piston designs, except they're a sly way to separate gun rag regulars from their money. If you want to buy one, go ahead... but don't expect others to buy the piston superiority hype.

BTW, have you noticed how much the DI AR has improved over 50+ years?
 
It's all good folks. My blood pressure doesn't get worked up on this. Always just find it odd how wrapped up people get. I like 9mm too, but I'm not going to try to spend half my internet life trying to convince you to put down your 40's and 45's.

As far as this post-SHTF scenario where we wander around finding AR15 parts...OK if that's what you envision, go for it. I suggest to have all of what you need, on hand, whether DI or piston. That reduces the negative "parts supply" aspect of the piston gun.

So, what do the DI fans have left?

-A lighter gun, that's cool and I appreciate that, but piston ARs are not heavy
-Supposedly more accurate, maybe
-anything else?

Again, a DI AR is not a bad gun, they are not jam-o-matics or the BCG breakers some make them out to be.

-exits stage left, to go AK shopping
 
So, what do the DI fans have left?

-A lighter gun, that's cool and I appreciate that, but piston ARs are not heavy
-Supposedly more accurate, maybe
-anything else?

You're leaving out:

-less expensive
-better balance (typically less nose-heavy)
-no carrier tilt issues
-ability to mount extended forearms (no gas regulator to obscure)
-common parts availability
-less expensive parts
-easier part replacement
 
If you really want to be technical, the AR is not a direct gas impingement design. The Ljungman/Hakim and MAS 44/49/49-56 are, and in those designs the gas tube simply vents into a cup on the bolt carrier, driving the assembly back. The stock normal AR, though, runs on a gas piston. It's located inside the bolt carrier, though, and lots of people don't necessarily realize that it's there. Note that the bolt makes use of gas rings - that's because the bolt is the moving part of the piston. Pressurized gas fills the open space between the bolt stem and the rear of the bolt carrier, which forces the carrier backwards, causing the bolt head to rotate and unlock, at which point residual pressure drives the bolt and carrier backwards.

Interestingly, this operation also has the effect of relieving pressure on the lugs when the bolt is unlocking, because the gas pressure is actually pushing the bolt forward into the barrel and off the locking lugs. I haven't seen any study of it, but we might eventually find that piston guns are putting more wear on the locking lugs because they don't do this.

I put together a video a while back looking closely at the AR bolt and carrier (both AR10 and AR15):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10td_zRPlao
 
Im leaving out: (according to fishbed)

-less expensive...good call there
-better balance (typically less nose-heavy)...really? Hit some weights
-no carrier tilt issues...old issue, been solved
-ability to mount extended forearms (no gas regulator to obscure)...isn't an issue to me, may be to some
-common parts availability...been addressed
-less expensive parts...perhaps a bit, but what's more likely to break?
-easier part replacement...I suppose so. With a DI gun just swap out your broken bolt carried/BCG after youve broke it by heating it up

Price is a good point. M&P Sport for instance is a great gun for $750.
 
Im leaving out: (according to fishbed)

-less expensive...good call there
-better balance (typically less nose-heavy)...really? Hit some weights
-no carrier tilt issues...old issue, been solved
-ability to mount extended forearms (no gas regulator to obscure)...isn't an issue to me, may be to some
-common parts availability...been addressed
-less expensive parts...perhaps a bit, but what's more likely to break?
-easier part replacement...I suppose so. With a DI gun just swap out your broken bolt carried/BCG after youve broke it by heating it up

Price is a good point. M&P Sport for instance is a great gun for $750.

Hit some weights?

I'd be more than happy to have an e-peeing contest with you regarding weights lifted in the gym, with video proof (already uploaded for us on my bodybuilding forum). If you really want to go down that road with this.

What lift would you like to use? Squat? Bench? Standing overhead press? Power clean?

What is the acceptable minimum strength standard before somebody can, in your opinion, prefer the balance of one rifle over the other?
 
breakingcontact, you seem to want to refute all of the proposed benefits to Di guns, yet you still can't address why you think piston guns are better and how.

also, balance can make or break how a weapon handles. it isn't about strength, so your suggestion to "hit the weights" is silly. perhaps your experience(or inexperience) hasn't led you to this discovery, but none the less, it's still there. "fast handling" has little to do with operator strength.
 
OP wanted opinions on why/where the Mil was going with it's pistons, not another dogfight.

Suppressors on piston guns. Period. Stop.
 
That lack of standardized parts thing is enough, by itself, to keep me, personally, from having any interest whatsoever in a piston AR.

The DI AR, among all of its other awesome attributes that have led to it being so incredibly popular, is extremely standardized in terms of parts fitting and availability. Not all parts are created equal and we all have preferences, but even outside of those preferences there are a <deleted> ton of other parts that will fit just as well, and function as designed, and there will be for a long, LONG time. Those parts, and other rifles that can be used for parts, are absolutely everywhere.
You know, I like my piston driven Ruger 556. It is a very well made fire arm, reliable and consistent. I like it much better than my friends direct impingment driven Smith and wesson m&p15. His also works reliably but doesn't spit brass in a neat little pile like mine does. Beyond that I like the way mine feels much better but I cant say much more than that.

It seems to me, and I chose my piston AR for this reason, that venting hot gases out of a firearms action sooner in the firing process is a good thing. Doesn't necessarily mean the other way is broken, but I would prefer it the way I chose. You can spend thousands on a DI or thousands on a piston AR. I was looking at a Daniel Defense VS. the Ruger when I bought mine, and they were within 50$ of each other where I was shopping. They were both very high quality and I believe I would have been happy with the Daniel Defense As well and may yet buy one down the road.

As far as the people that are "concerned" about parts availability, ask yourself how many other fire arms do you own that dont have a market wide standard. I own several Smith and Wesson, Dan Wesson, and Ruger revolvers, bolt action rifles of various makes, shotguns of various makes, other semi auto and single shot rifles of various makes ect...and guess what? Out of dozens, There are only 5 of these that could use parts from a different maker than the original manufacturer in the way you describe. And one of them is my piston driven Ruger. It can use most of the parts from another ar15. Heaven forbid it cant use all of them.

You know, despite that horrifying revelation, ironically enough, I don't lose sleep at night about parts availability for the rest of them! Its the darndest thing! I have had to/wanted to replace parts from many firearms, some 50+ years old, and it was as simple as calling the manufacturer, in a couple instances, going on gunbroker. I didn't have to search high and low to the ends of the earth to find that magic elusive part. I found them In a matter of minutes and they all have arrived at my door within a few days. Some I was able to pick up at local stores.

Personally I am not really worried about it breaking. If it does in the end of the world scenario, which is what I am sure some of this thinking stems from, there will be guns laying around everywhere, and I wont need to fix it. I can just pick up a new one. This concern people seem to have seems rather silly to me.
 
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If you really want to be technical, the AR is not a direct gas impingement design. The Ljungman/Hakim and MAS 44/49/49-56 are, and in those designs the gas tube simply vents into a cup on the bolt carrier, driving the assembly back. The stock normal AR, though, runs on a gas piston. It's located inside the bolt carrier, though, and lots of people don't necessarily realize that it's there. Note that the bolt makes use of gas rings - that's because the bolt is the moving part of the piston. Pressurized gas fills the open space between the bolt stem and the rear of the bolt carrier, which forces the carrier backwards, causing the bolt head to rotate and unlock, at which point residual pressure drives the bolt and carrier backwards.

This is is fact

Interestingly, this operation also has the effect of relieving pressure on the lugs when the bolt is unlocking, because the gas pressure is actually pushing the bolt forward into the barrel and off the locking lug...

No. It would be a violation of the laws of physics for this to happen
 
captain awesome...i get what you are saying. all those other firearms that don't share parts interchangeability...how long have they been manufactured and on the market? how many aftermarket vendors make parts for those guns? how easy do you think it would be to go out right now and find proprietary parts for you ruger aside from contacting ruger?

my point is that the piston operation, in almost all circumstances, doesn't really outweigh the sharing of parts, availability, lighter weight, etc, etc, etc, of a DI gun.

as for the op...both are VERY reliable platforms. they need to decide if the supposed increase in reliability of the piston, is worth giving up the benefits of the DI. I say until there is a standardized platform, that many mfrs start to get on board with and make parts for, the answer is no. YMMV
 
I am not a fan of a PIGB (Piston In Gas Block) upper, but there are a few points it's detracters should consider-

-Most PIGB rifles are heavier because they use a heavier profile barrel, the addition of the op rod only adds a couple of ounces

-If a major part fails on a PIGB upper, it's a simple matter to swap the whole upper for another, whether it's another PIGB or a Stoner system upper

Something for PIGB fans to consider-

-The BCG of a Stoner system rifle doesn't get very hot. I've put hunderds of rounds through one in a short time. The gas block was hot enough to boil water and the stainless steel barrel turned bronze from the heat but the BCG was barely warm
 
MistWolf - to clarify, I'm not saying that the net total force on the bolt is pushing it forward, but that there is a forward component of force added, because the pressure inside the bolt carrier is acting on both the bolt and the carrier. That forward component will reduce the net rearward force being exerted on the bolt. By how, much, I don't know - but it is a value greater than zero.
 
I'm with Captain Awesome. Own both, own either, own neither if you so choose. I have one of each and don't see any downside to either and see no need to argue that either is superior.

It's just as silly as the endless glock vs 1911 arguments or the .40 vs 10mm debates.
 
The pressure and duration inside the expansion chamber of the BCG is far less than the pressure and duration inside the bore. It's like saying a skinny 7 year old can push back a charging NFL linebacker
 
i get what you are saying. all those other firearms that don't share parts interchangeability...how long have they been manufactured and on the market?

Some as stated, 50+ years old, but haven't been newly manufactured in almost as long a time, some are within the last few years, some are still manufactured. Hasn't been a problem for any of them. maybe I am lucky?

how many aftermarket vendors make parts for those guns?
I have no idea to be honest with you. more than I care to try and count. not many for Dan Wesson relative to the Smiths, but I couldn't give you a number. its different for each anyway.

how easy do you think it would be to go out right now and find proprietary parts for you ruger aside from contacting ruger?
again, the Ruger uses a standard lower (and the upper uses a bunch of standard AR15 parts as well), so in most cases just as easy as a DI ar15. Fortunately I dont believe Ruger is going anywhere anytime soon, so I dont see it being a problem even if the above weren't true. It came configured exactly the way I wanted it and even has a quad rail, so I cant imaging wanting to change anything. Mine is chambered in 6.8 SPC, so it wouldn't make much difference beyond that anyhow. I am not going to claim I know anything about barrel swapping and such between calibers with the DI rifles. I know of someone who wanted a heavier contour barrel for his Ruger, so he had a gunsmith fit a barrel blank onto one. That type of thing is always a possibility no matter what you are shooting.

my point is that the piston operation, in almost all circumstances, doesn't really outweigh the sharing of parts, availability, lighter weight, etc, etc, etc, of a DI gun.

you are right, but I don't consider the benefits of a DI gun to be significant either.

both are VERY reliable platforms.
^^this^^
thanks goodness we aren't forced to get one over the other.
 
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I'm with Captain Awesome. Own both, own either, own neither if you so choose. I have one of each and don't see any downside to either and see no need to argue that either is superior.

It's just as silly as the endless glock vs 1911 arguments or the .40 vs 10mm debates.
amen

I also think its funny that a Stoner invented the M16 in the Sixtys.
 
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This topic again ...

I've owned a pair of POF gas piston ARs for about four years with zero problems. The op rod and piston don't add any significant weight and POF has every spare part you can imagine at reasonable prices so parts and availability are a non issue. If you shoot full auto suppressed you'll appreciate an oil-free bolt carrier.

I also own DI ARs but would sell them before the POFs. There are lots of opinions about gas piston ARs with most of them coming from folks with little to no experience with them. So what's new right? If you don't want a gas piston AR then don't buy one. There are far more important things to worry about.
 
i have nothing against piston guns, and in fact was real close to buying a POF .308 not long ago. my point is that i can walk into a local store, or to a buddy's house and get absolutely any part i need for my DI gun. i like that fact. until i can do the same with a piston gun, the added (if any) reliability is far outweighed by parts interchangeability. as they say, to each his own. now that's just me, and my line of thinking. it's something i consider when buying firearms, the same as i consider availability of ammo or components. it probably comes as no surprise that don't own any oddball calibers.
 
Holy pissing contest Batman!


I would gladly take a KAC SR-15 or LMT M4, just as I would a "Piston" AR like an HK416 or LWRC M6. They would probably all run just as well; its a matter of choice and POU.

Its when you go with lower end DI AR's that you will run into problems i.e. DPMS or Oly.

Ultimately they're all AR15's, so choose the best one for your POU and price range. I also own AK's and SKS's for when I really want a "reliable" piston gun. I don't really have a need for a piston AR, although it would be nice to own one.
 
i can walk into a local store, or to a buddy's house and get absolutely any part i need for my DI gun.

I don't think your buddy would appreciate that all to much. Pilfering parts of friends guns is generally looked down upon.:neener:
 
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