AR type handguns and rifle uppers/lowers??

[Rule3]

I really do not know what section to put this in but it is kinda legal.

Probably been asked before.

1) Pretty sure that I can not take a AR15 rifle and use the lower to make a pistol (change upper and butt stock) as it was serial numbered as a rifle and once a rifle always a rifle, correct??

2) Now, If I buy a already made AR pistol, if I get tired of it, or do not like it can I use that LOWER receiver and make a rifle out of it (new upper and butt stock)??

3) I have also heard that I can add one of the triangle shape forward grip to a AR handgun (angled fore grip) and it does not count as a vertical forward handle/grip so it is BATF allowed Is that true.??

Like this or is it something else??

https://www.magpul.com/products/afg-2

Thanks for any info or links to where I can find such convoluted info

 

[pjeski]

I really do not know what section to put this in but it is kinda legal.

Probably been asked before.

1) Pretty sure that I can not take a AR15 rifle and use the lower to make a pistol (change upper and butt stock) as it was serial numbered as a rifle and once a rifle always a rifle, correct??

2) Now, If I buy a already made AR pistol, if I get tired of it, or do not like it can I use that LOWER receiver and make a rifle out of it (new upper and butt stock)??

3) I have also heard that I can add one of the triangle shape forward grip to a AR handgun (angled fore grip) and it does not count as a vertical forward handle/grip so it is BATF allowed Is that true.??

Like this or is it something else??

https://www.magpul.com/products/afg-2

Thanks for any info or links to where I can find such convoluted info

1. Correct. If you make a rifle into a pistol with either <16" barrel or <26" oal, you have made a short barreled rifle.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921
8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

2. Yes you can.
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

3. AFG's are allowed, but VFG's are not. There is no law on this, but there are ATF letters out there.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx/view

 

[bearcreek]

Probably been asked before.

It has.

1) Pretty sure that I can not take a AR15 rifle and use the lower to make a pistol (change upper and butt stock) as it was serial numbered as a rifle and once a rifle always a rifle, correct??

You're right. One thing to keep in mind is that just because you bought it as a rifle does not mean it was serial numbered as a rifle. If someone assembled it outside the factory, which is growing increasingly common, the lower may just be "multi cal" or something similar, which means it can be used for either one. If it's assembled as a rifle first, then you can't use it to make a pistol but if you do it the other way around you can use it for either. So basically, if you assemble the entire gun but leave the shoulder stock till last, you have made a pistol first and can use it for either. There is no maximum barrel length for a pistol. If you put the stock on the lower before mating it to the barreled upper you've made a rifle first and can no longer use that lower for a pistol.

2) Now, If I buy a already made AR pistol, if I get tired of it, or do not like it can I use that LOWER receiver and make a rifle out of it (new upper and butt stock)??

Yes, assuming it was a pistol or unassigned lower to start with.

Obviously most of this is totally impossible to prove but it illustrates the kind of complete morons we have in government today.

 

[pjeski]

"Multi cal" does not mean it can be used as either a pistol or a rifle. Also, a lower that is marked "pistol" is equally meaningless. All that matters is what the weapon is configured as first.

 

[bearcreek]

"Multi cal" does not mean it can be used as either a pistol or a rifle. Also, a lower that is marked "pistol" is equally meaningless. All that matters is what the weapon is configured as first.

You're right. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[grogetr]

When I bought 2 bare lowers the FFl said he had to list them as pistols since they could be made for either when he did the back ground check. He then helped me put one together for the rifle I was building.

 

[dogtown tom]

grogetr When I bought 2 bare lowers the FFl said he had to list them as pistols since they could be made for either when he did the back ground check. He then helped me put one together for the rifle I was building.

If your dealer did this on the Form 4473 he better start reading the instructions on the form. ATF regulations say a frame or receiver are not pistols or rifles until built as such.

Odds are he wrote down "pistol" on a Illinois state form, not the 4473. Illinois doesn't use FBI NICS but a state agency for background checks.

 

[Rule3]

Thanks,lets not make it more convoluted than it is,

I am not buying a lower and "making" building anything It would be a complete pistol or handgun, I wish I could just buy a pistol upper and put in on (after I took of the butt-stock first of course and put a tube on). Crazy!

But that would be to easy.

 

[bearcreek]

Thanks,lets not make it more convoluted than it is,

I am not buying a lower and "making" building anything It would be a complete pistol or handgun, I wish I could just buy a pistol upper and put in on (after I took of the butt-stock first of course and put a tube on). Crazy!

But that would be to easy.

If you're talking about buying a complete new one then you're fine. It's pretty simple. Buy a pistol and you can make it into a rifle but not the other way around. It's when you start looking at used that you run into theoretical problems. Wasn't sure what you were looking at.

 

[Rule3]

Yes, it would be new (complete), but it all is very stupid. The receiver is the gun. You can make a pistol a rifle ( regular non short barrel one) but not make a rifle a pistol (even if you take off the but stock so it is not a SBR, so what the heck difference does the serial number on the receiver matter? It is still going to indicate it is or was a pistol??

Anyway it would be in my best interest to buy the best lower I can get with the best trigger, as if I want to later make a another rifle I would not need to spend more on a good trigger. I am assuming any caliber rifle upper will fit on the handgun receiver? Unless it is a piston driven like a Rock River or similar.??

Kinda like the law that a 18 year old can buy a "tactical" shotgun or AR 15/AK 47 pass a background and walk out the same day, but if he wants a 22 Revolver nope can't do. (at least here in Fl)

 

[goon]

If you're building on new stripped lowers, you could build an AR pistol on them completely legally. Technically, if you build one into a rifle, then decide one week later you want to build it into a pistol, you legally can't without registering it as a short-barreled rifle. I'm sure it happens fifty times a day and is next to impossible to prove, but that's my understanding of the law.

You could pay lip service to the law by acquiring a pistol buffer tube building a "pistol" first before it's a rifle. It sounds kind of stupid, but it's been suggested to me as well.

 

[bearcreek]

You could pay lip service to the law by acquiring a pistol buffer tube building a "pistol" first before it's a rifle. It sounds kind of stupid, but it's been suggested to me as well.

Actually you don't have to bother with a pistol buffer tube in order to do that. It's perfectly legal to use a rifle buffer tube on a pistol. When building it all comes down to the order in which the parts are assembled. No additional parts are required in order to assemble it as a pistol first.

 

[pdsmith505]

Bearcreek has the correct answer, and here is the letter saying so:

http://www.jcweaponry.com/images/ar15/BB.JPG

 

[goon]

Actually you don't have to bother with a pistol buffer tube in order to do that. It's perfectly legal to use a rifle buffer tube on a pistol. When building it all comes down to the order in which the parts are assembled. No additional parts are required in order to assemble it as a pistol first.

Even if you're building with a carbine reciever extension? It'd be hard to make the argument that it was a "pistol" with that, but I'm also not a lawyer.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Yes, a carbine receiver extension is fine for making AR pistols.

 

[pjeski]

Even if you're building with a carbine reciever extension? It'd be hard to make the argument that it was a "pistol" with that, but I'm also not a lawyer.

From my link in post 2 above:

(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

and

(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Nothing about the type of tube you use makes it designed to be fired from the shoulder or with two hands.

As in the letter pdsmith linked, you just have to be careful not to get in the situation where you have constructive possession of an SBR.

I have built a few ARs by building them into pistols first, with short uppers, registering them as pistols with the state (we have that), and later building them into rifles.

All that said, I would not even consider building a full length rifle up leaving the stock off until last and trying to argue that I had built it as a pistol first. Even though in that case you have no chance of running afoul of constructive possession. Even though I feel certain a weapon in that configuration meets the definition of a pistol per the Feds (though not my state). I think it would be easy for a prosecutor to argue and for a judge or jury to believe that you built the weapon with the intent for it to be fired from the shoulder, regardless of the order you assembled it.

Though IANAL.

 

[Tirod]

Overall, questions about how we got to this confusing and illogical state of affairs rests on the simple fact of how old the law is - the NFA was passed back in 1934. It never considered how a receiver could be used for both pistol and rifle. It just wasn't done in the day, and those who attempted to cross back and forth were lumped into being felons because that is where the largest number of guns confiscated by the police were noted.

The NFA was an anti gun possession law - it's original language would have banned handguns completely. There were no real issues with silencers, etc., it was thrown in to season the disarmament bias.

As time, engineers, and the AR came to be, the ATF has been stuck regulating with it and we have the current understanding that is frequently related to newcomers. One major thing to consider is that it is based largely on our interpretation of the ATF's regulations - which are law as Congress delegated that to them, same as the DOT or EPA - and enforcement.

Nobody gets arrested for much of the rifle/pistol issue because we avoid it - the "chilling" affect of not wanting to be that one guy in 100,000 that might get in trouble. And that issue is more likely to come to their recognition due to the shooting community or local LEO's involvement. The current situation over using the Brace as a shoulder stock is a good example - Range Officers and the guy in the next lane are acting as surrogate ATF and being more a pain over it than the Agents.

As for the lowers in question - they are so inexpensive in relation to the overall cost of building that the question of "can it switch back and forth" has little financial basis. For the most part when building an AR the end result usually has parts in it, like the trigger or free float, which would substantially cover the cost of another lower for a second build. Building AR's has become exactly the same as building a show car - lots of exotic high end parts, but we still can only use it in limited ways. There's carry limits and speed limits. A $2000 high end build budget is generally considered awe inspiring - but the reality is that was the end goal. If the builder wanted he could have easily financed a pistol and rifle build and had a $1000 budget for each. The pair would still be impressive.

That's why the pistol/rifle build question causes me to think that the priorities are in the wrong place - it smacks of just doing it to say you could, when buying another lower could be just as affordable given what is blown on the rest of the parts. Lowers are about 10% of the build cost, high or low end. Handguards, in comparison, could run from $25 for drop in, to $250 for a free float. If costs were really all that binding we'd see a lot more handguard builds - but we don't, do we?

It really doesn't make any difference for most of us. Pistol or rifle, most guns wind up being completed and both will exist. It's mostly a fantasy issue for the budget minded who see the laws as being overly complicated - which they are - but the law really doesn't keep you from building both anyway. It's the singular mindset that looks at it as an obstacle where none really exists.

If you are parting together one build, another just after it is entirely feasible, too. You don't need to tear down the first and have a pile of expensive parts left over. The result is a working gun plus pile of parts as the total expense - and that is where it's a false assumption to think it would be cheaper to convert a lower. It's not - you lose the money on the unused parts sitting there, and you lose the money on selling them off used.

It's false economy to worry over it, don't. Buy another lower.

 

[Rule3]

Very well said Tirod.^^^

Although I could build my own rifle or pistol (AR) I find no savings in doing so. Kinda like building a car from parts, the sum of the parts will be more than a completed build. The Rim Fire Central guys buy a $200 Ruger 10/22 and then "upgrade" it to a $1,000 rifle and it doesn't shoot a whole lot better. I would just buy a more accurate rifle to begin with.

Big manufacturers can get all the parts in bulk for much less than I can from say Brownells or elsewhere. I reload a lot and everyone tries to convince me to start casting my own bullets. I flat out have no desire and do not have access to FREE lead. Unless I mine the berms which in 100 degree heat I do not want to, For $40 someone can make 500 of them them and deliver them to my door.

 

[pjeski]

To me, it's not about the price, it's about building exactly what I want.

 

[goon]

I think it'd be hard to argue that you didn't ever intend to fire the AR from your shoulder if you used a Carbine receiver extension that's specifically designed for a buttstock to snap right on to. And if you're like me, you bought the whole thing as an assembly because you knew you'd need all the parts anyhow and buying them together saved you $11... So the carbine buttstock designed to attach to the carbine receiver extension on your "pistol" is literally in the next room.

Fortunately, no one ever seems to get in trouble over this in the real world. There's also a lot of truth to the argument that once you have one built, it's probably going to stay built. But it's still an insanely stupid law that I'd love to see scrapped. It keeps outdoorsmen from being able to use 12" barreled lever action carbine as a predator defense gun. It's stupid and pointless.

 

[Sam1911]

First, a caveat. I'm not an expert on the subject and I expect to be corrected by those who know more than I.

Ok good!

From what I've read, if you had a 16" or longer barreled AR upper that was attached to a rifle lower, this is the ONLY size of an upper from which you can remove the rifle lower and put on a pistol buffer w/o having to perform any special actions or pay any special fees to satisfy the ATF.

Eh...? What? Dang that's hard on the ol' brain to decipher.

If you have an AR lower that hasn't been anything yet, you can build it into a "handgun" with a barrel of whatever length, and no stock. (Any buffer tube is ok.)
You can build it into an "Other Firearm" if it has no stock and a barrel long enough to get the whole package to exceed 26" in length. Then you can also use a vertical fore grip if you want.
You can build it into a "Rifle" if it has a stock. If it has a buttstock, you need to make the barrel over 16" long. (Or first register it as a short-barreled rifle.)

IF you'd like to be able to swap back and forth between configurations, make it into a handguns FIRST. If you make it into a rifle first, it needs to stay a rifle unless you register it as an NFA Firearm.

Now, with that firmly in mind, any AR barrel under 16" in length, that began its life as a short-barreled rifle (SBR), MUST ALWAYS STAY configured as an SBR & just the way it is now.

No. That's not right. If you've registered this as an NFA "SBR" then you actually can change it into any of the configurations you'd like. Making it look like a "handgun" won't remove its status as an NFA item (it is still a "Firearm Made from a Rifle") but making it into a 26+" rifle with a barrel over 16" will turn it into a regular "GCA" rifle and effectively removes it from NFA classification.

Any subsequent changes MAY require getting another $200 stamp and doing a new set of paperwork and procedures, etc. (like getting the signature and approval of your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer, aka CLEO) the background check, fingerprints, filling out the Form 1, etc. I think these requirements vary by state.

NOPE.

Here is where I plead mea culpa in not knowing more about modifying an already approved SBR (like changing the length of the barrel).

Rather obviously, which begs the question of exactly why you'd share so much information you haven't done the research on.

HOWEVER, there are ways of doing the conversion from rifle to SBR or pistol that are easier in that direction than going the other way. ...

There's nothing simple about converting any rifle into a handgun or SBR configuration. Either of those gets that gun into National Firearms Act territory and you either need to get your paperwork in order FIRST, or stay well clear of it entirely.

If you have a pistol with a 16" barrel upper - it is no different than having a rifle with a 16" barrel. You can slap on a Magpul stock or stock of your choice and make it a rifle with no need to do anything.

Technically it is a LITTLE different. A rifled-barrel firearm that's over 26" long but has no stock is an "Other Firearm." Not a Long Gun, not a Handgun. And the restrictions on how it transfers are similar to that of a Handgun, not a Rifle. Aside from that, yes, you can make it into a rifle without NFA paperwork by adding a buttstock -- SO LONG AS the barrel is over 16" long.
("Other Firearms" don't actually have to have 16"+ barrels, but they DO have to exceed 26" in overall length.)

Since it is the lower that carries the serial number, it is the part of the rifle that is actually registered.

Common misconception. Regular handguns, rifles, and shotguns -- that are not NFA "Firearms" like SBRs, SBSs, Machine Guns, etc. -- are not "registered" except in a very few states.

This is the "gun" part of the whole enchilada that is sold in various stages of completion - including the "bare bones" format that has no serial number and needs to be further manufactured by the owner.

Wait...what? Hold on. Now you've got "80% lowers" tied up in this? That's just confusing this already muddled mess, but yeah, ok, you can buy some firearms receivers in incomplete condition that are not actually "firearms" yet in the legal sense.

But, that's another story. If interested, just Google "ghost gun."

Why google the anti-gunners' new slanderous term for it? Might as well google "baby killer gun," eh?

If you are converting a pistol or rifle into an SBR, you are, in effect, creating a new firearm and you are required by law to file Form 1 with the ATF and pay the $200 stamp fee.

YES! This is true! Hooray!

The link above explains how you can do all of this online BUT going it all alone carries with it some of the same caveats that used to be said about people acting as their own defense attorney.
They used to say, "He who chooses to defend himself has an idiot for a lawyer."

WHAT? Holy cow, that's just ignorant. It is very simple to file the form 5320.1 ("Form 1") to "make and register" an SBR or SBS. It is pretty straightforward and not really fraught with troubles. Get your paperwork approved before you start making or cutting, and you're A-OK.

That maxim predates the Internet by a few centuries. There are lawyers online who will do everything for you, from simply reviewing your self-made application to doing all of the hard lifting, if you decide to do it yourself, with or without a trust.

I've never heard of a single person asking a lawyer to file a Form 1 for them. To create a Trust? Sure. To file a Form 1? C'mon!

I just bought a pistol lower that I will probably sell by itself OR as an SB pistol that does not require anything more than any other firearm transaction done through an FFL dealer.

Wait. Why are you selling a lower you just bought, or selling a lower you're building into a "SB pistol?" Not sure I see where you're going with that.

If I choose to add a supportive device (like a SIG brace or something similar) I have not changed its pistol designation since the ATF has specifically ruled that arm braces - even if held under the shoulder - are perfectly Kosher.

No, that information is about two years out of date. It is NOT "kosher" to use a SIG (or other) "arm brace" to shoulder an AR "handgun."

Do more research ... or come bearing questions rather than advice ... before you post a lot of information again.

We'd thank you kindly.