Is it legal to put a 16" upper on an AR pistol receiver and a stock?

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greenr18

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Is it legal to put a 16" upper on an AR pistol receiver and a stock?
I have been told it is legal by some and illegal by others to use an AR pistol lower as the basis for a rifle and switch between rifle and pistol configurations, even if the pistol configuration is stockless and is using a designated pistol buffer tube. So... illegal or legal?
 
It would have a fore grip so it would be legal, but only after you make the appropriate application to the ATF. It would no longer be considered a weapon to be fire by 1 hand.
 
Hot damn. I'm gonna have a DPMS Kitty Kat esque pistol and an SP1 build on 1 receiver then :]
 
It would have a fore grip so it would be legal, but only after you make the appropriate application to the ATF. It would no longer be considered a weapon to be fire by 1 hand.
If it had a vertical foregrip, it would still be over 26" and would not be an AOW. There is no reason to "make an application to the ATF" to do this. With just a regular at forend, or even an angled foregrip, it would be good to go. They don't count as foregrips.
 
Back in 2011 the ATF ruled that you can convert a pistol into a rifle and convert it back to a pistol without violating NFA rules.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download
While this is true, if I understand the OPs question, he just wants to put a long upper on a pistol. The Feds have no barrel or overall length limit for pistols. It would be good to go.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
 
While there is no barrel length maximum for a pistol, if it is greater than 26" over all length, it becomes a firearm, and is no longer considered a pistol until the short upper is put back on it.

So less than 26" OAL with no stock, pistol.
Greater than 26" OAL with no stock, firearm.
Greater than 26" OAL with stock, rifle.

All configurations are legal and can be switched back at forth, providing the gun was in pistol form first.

Pistol > Firearm > pistol
Pistol > rifle> pistol
Pistol > firearm > rifle > pistol

or any combination or sequence as long as it STARTED as a pistol.
 
While there is no barrel length maximum for a pistol, if it is greater than 26" over all length, it becomes a firearm, and is no longer considered a pistol until the short upper is put back on it.

So less than 26" OAL with no stock, pistol.
Greater than 26" OAL with no stock, firearm.
Greater than 26" OAL with stock, rifle.

All configurations are legal and can be switched back at forth, providing the gun was in pistol form first.

Pistol > Firearm > pistol
Pistol > rifle> pistol
Pistol > firearm > rifle > pistol

or any combination or sequence as long as it STARTED as a pistol.
That is true by Michigan law, but the Feds have no 26" maximum length on pistols. To the Feds it's still a pistol.
 
That is true by Michigan law, but the Feds have no 26" maximum length on pistols. To the Feds it's still a pistol.

True, the Feds have no max length on a pistol, but there was an interesting rulng that a firearm with a barrel >16" and OAL >26" and no stock can legally have a vertical fore grip without being an AOW because part of the requirement for an AOW is to be readily concealable. By being >26" OAL, the ATF found that it was not readily concealable, and thus not an AOW. That's where the "firearm" designation comes in.
 
True, the Feds have no max length on a pistol, but there was an interesting rulng that a firearm with a barrel >16" and OAL >26" and no stock can legally have a vertical fore grip without being an AOW because part of the requirement for an AOW is to be readily concealable. By being >26" OAL, the ATF found that it was not readily concealable, and thus not an AOW. That's where the "firearm" designation comes in.

That's true. If it has a VFG and no stock, and is over 26", it is a firearm and not a pistol or an AOW. That is because it is designed to be fired with two hands (and therefore no longer a pistol) , not because it is over 26". If it were not over 26", it would be an AOW. Also, if it is over 26" with a VFG and you actually conceal it, it is an AOW.

Even if it is over 26", if it is designed to be held and fired with one hand, it is a pistol to the Feds.

Edit to Add: I believe the "ruling" you are referring to is the Franklin XO-26. It does not have a 16" barrel and doesn't need one to be a firearm (with a VFG). It simply needs to be over 26" and not actually concealed.
 
I DO intend to put a stock on with a full length SP1 upper on it, and then be able to convert it back to stockless with a short upper on top as a pistol. But from what I'm seeing from you guys thats no problem. Thanks for clearing that up :D
 
Now that the legal niceties are explained, the reality sets in.

You can do it, but the cost of new lowers is so cheap, it's impractical.

The AR is compared to Legos, said to be modular, etc, but taking it apart and putting it all back together in another form tends to increase the wear and tear on it. I have a complete rifle - and a complete pistol. The additional cost to make one or the other complete was about the cost of the assembled lower.

In my case, about $40 for a stripped lower, and another $40 for a LPK. Add shipping.

To have gone from one to the other, add in the cost of the parts sitting around not being useful. At this point it strays into that kind of accounting we don't consider, but it's still there - we spent money on parts and if we can't use them, it's an expense.

You wind up with only one working gun. Sum total of parts is now higher - which means you really don't "save" any money. And the next issue is what happens to the parts? In most cases, we buy another lower anyway and reassemble them into their own complete gun again. Why? Because we really aren't going to swap parts back and forth to take one to the range. We would prefer to take both and have two running guns.

Guns are like that - same reason every place setting on the table at Thanksgiving has it's own knife, plus another to carve the turkey. And they aren't that interchangeable.

Just because you can doesn't mean we do, or, you should. I would press the point for a lot of shooters that if they think they can't afford another lower to finish a complete build, they aren't really prioritizing their expenses. Bring up the cost of the cell phone plan and suggest they could switch to a pay per minute and they immediately go into shock. Suggest they could defer the cost of expensive custom parts and get the commodity priced milspec ones and their fantasy is attacked. They get real defensive about the expense of freefloats and stocks - the reality being neither contribute to accuracy simply because they have the current style or are CNC'd with the Hole of the Month on them.

Been there - converted my AR from dissipator to free float with a $140 tube and guess what, no increase in incremental accuracy. It can't shoot better than the barrel, what it does it look cooler to me and I recognize that the cool factor was what I paid for.

The pistol got B5 drop in 'barrel shields' and I will contend not only shoots just as well, but cost $100 less and looks better.

There's my point - had I budgeted a mandatory part and expense into the build, it would cover the cost of a lower with LPK. Most AR builders realize that after the second or third build and the fantasy of the AR as Legos able to transform itself from one to the other becomes appreciated as that - something we talk about on the internet.

As far as the gun safe, it's just talk in the long run. Both will be sitting there eventually.
 
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