AR vs. AK vs. Mini-14

[benEzra]

If you evaluate the virtues of these firearms, you will (in my opinion) arrive at the AR15. From the standpoints of configuration flexibility, broad availability of parts, brass availability, ballistic performance, and just about any other considerations you can think of, the AR15 is the clear choice.

At least if you can afford an AR, which I can't at the moment due to medical bills (my 6 y.o. son will, adjusted for inflation, be the Six Million Dollar Man when he grows up, and has several grand in artificial parts inside already).

If you are on a limited budget, the AK platform is unbeatable. I paid $379 for my SAR-1 and another $100 for a mil-spec QD, illuminated-reticle, waterproof, rangefinding 4x scope that I slap on there occasionally. Magazines were $10 each until recently (20-rounders were $5.99!) and are built like tanks. If price is no object, the AR certainly has its advantages--better inherent accuracy, better ergonomics, wider selection of aftermarket features, and the ability to change caliber/configuration just by changing the upper--but when price is a limiting factor, an AK will give you 90% of the capability of an AR for typically less than half the price.

The AR is supposedly less reliable but when I shot over a half case of Wolf laquered 55gr fmj without cleaning and only got a few ftf(ammo related), I hardly see any need to even call this an issue....

There are degrees of reliability. The AR is reliable, the AK is extremely reliable. I dare say that many people on THR have probably shot more than a case of Wolf lacquered 123-gr FMJ through their AK's with zero malfunctions, since the AK is probably more tolerant of crappy ammo, fouling, hard primers, etc.

Regarding the mini-14--in my opinion, the main area the mini-14 shines is the fact that you can get the fantastic Butler Creek folder for it (I purchased one for mine after the ban sunset in 2004). This is IMHO far and away the best folding stock on the market for any firearm; the only reason I haven't gotten a folder for my AK is that the BC stock on my mini makes all the AK folders I've looked at look like uncomfortable junk. Personally, I think the mini-14 is at its best with a BC folder, a ~16" barrel w/compact flash suppressor, and 20 or 30 round steel magazine (someday I plan to shorten the 18.5" tube on my mini to 16.5"). With the standard stock and 18.5" barrel, the mini doesn't give you any capability that you couldn't get for 1/3 to 1/2 the price with a Saiga, IMO.

 

[Ivy Mike]

So, I don't have an AK and don't know much at all about the types or manufacturers. Can someone post or PM me about what and where a good AK could be gotten? I am not cheap, I just hate to spend money on something and then find out there is a better one for $50 more.

If you can't get in on the VEPR group buy, you can always look at some of the Arsenal Inc. stamped rifles.
I picked up my SLR-105R for $475 a few months back. Stamped reciever and chambered for 5.45x39. I don't think I could have done better at the time. The only improvement would have been a milled receiver, but those cost quite a bit more.
http://www.arsenalinc.com

 

[Ala Dan]

Um folk's, I guess I'd take my .45 caliber SIG P220A~

But, I'm a proud new owner of a Colt AR.

 

[czhen]

Dear guys
AR, beatiful from top bottom sometimes relaible some, accuracy is excellen for a BR. However, I am sorry I don't want critize AR rifles (actually I a big fan of them), your statement tell us the sadly truth.....

(over a half case of Wolf laquered 55gr fmj without cleaning and only got a few ftf(ammo related), I hardly see any need to even call this an issue....)

On a battle rifle Its, because it suppose to be highly reliable at any moment not only after cleaning.

Ak are like shooting machine very reliable with awfull accuracy, aesthetic absent.

Mini14: I can make any comments since Idon't know enough to emit an opinnion.

Out of topic FAL:
I do believe that should US were manufactured it today we would have talking how boring is to shoot them intead of how to cleaning the sand.

CZhen
FL
Ps.: Sorruy guys if sound negative.
seems I had a bad day.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Czhen,

You quoted me and I don't understand the point you were trying to make ?

I fired over 600-700 rounds of Wolf ammo(not Brass), laquered(supposed to gum up extraction if you believe internet lore), with only about 3 failures to fire from either hard primers or something like that...

I don't know what you guys consider,"reliable", but for me 650rnds (minimum) with only 3 or so ftf, without cleaning passes muster for me ! If I have to fire 650 rounds of crap ammo(laquered wolf is crap compared to winchester white box) without cleaning my weapon(AR or AK) something is seriously wrong, but my AR will do it/has done it !

 

[KriegHund]

Ohh man...

I LOVE my mini 14 rancher.

LOVE it.

Simple as cherry pie and all american. The wood stock is nice but it can be changed with a plastic one. Can hold 5 10 20 30 40 or 90 round magazines. Can have a scope. Is relativly light. Simple safety. Simple dissasembly.

The only thing i dont like, the bare barrel. Heats up fast. It would be nice if they sold a full length wood or plastic stock for it. With better heat protection.

The sites are...meh. Ide rather have notch and post type sights, but thats personal preference. The peephole sights work.


Hmm.. i guess i should add more. Maybe i just got a really good Mini 14, although ive heard theyve really improved them over the years, especially the rancher version i have.

My mini 14 using cheap mags and even cheaper ammo (really crappy wincherster ammo) worked flawlessly.

The spent cartridges get flung a bit far but they go almost straight right which is nice in most situations.

Is it better than the Ar-15 in many aspects? No by far.

Is it the devil people make it out to be? Certainly not.

I should also mention the magazines release.
Takes a little practice, as you move yourhand forward press the release lever forward and then slide forward to press the magazine sitself forward and its released. Simple and fast witha little practice.

 

[javafiend]

Eightball wrote:

Something for the anti-gun lobby--"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -Adolf Hitler, 1935

Myth. Hitler never said or wrote that. http://www.rkba.org/research/rkba.faq

 

[jobu07]

I should also mention the magazines release.
Takes a little practice, as you move yourhand forward press the release lever forward and then slide forward to press the magazine sitself forward and its released. Simple and fast witha little practice.

That got me to thinking. On my AR, the mags don't drop free when the mag release button is hit. And these are some well worn surplus mags. Colt, adventure lines, etc. However, with my Mini, the mags do drop free just as soon as I hit that mag release

 

[agtman]

Here's my 2-cents ...

AK-47: unless it's been "tuned" to the level of a Krebs KTR-03S (rear aperture sight, match-grade barrel), the average AK is an inaccurate piece of commie crapola, with an antiquated 1890s sight system, hard-to-manipulate safety, and other ergonomic features that only a conscripted serf could love. It appears to have been made intentionally awkward to reload, which leads one to wonder if this design feature had some other purpose, such as during wartime food shortages in commie countries. (Authorities could always "thin out" the military ranks a bit by ordering human wave attacks against fortified enemy positions. )

Is the average AK reliable? Sure, no question, but reliability is only one part of the equation in a serious battlefield rifle.

Mini-14: In my experience, leave it at the ranch or the farm. Decent plinker, but at best it's a fun gun for the range. The mags are a joke. Plus, it's not that accurate, despite the rear aperture sight system. My guess is, under hard battlefield use, a Mini-14 would go t*ts up within 300rds even assuming you had reliable 30rd mags to feed it.

AR: Personally, I'd prefer my .308 M1A, but I'm old school. With the AR system there are trade-offs. The AR is inherently very accurate and when compared to an AK, the AR's accuracy may as well be in a different universe. For most AR users, assuming theirs is of reputable manufacture, the AR is acceptably reliable. Not as "reliable" in the strict sense as the AK, but it's reasonable if the user maintains it. Unless or until they redesign the direct impingment system, though, regular maintenance/cleaning is required.

I'm not impressed generally with the terminal ballistics of the 5.56mm, but the newer 70gns+ bullets (e.g., 75-77gns), especially where HPs can be used, appear to be more lethal against 2-legged animals and terrorists than the earlier projectiles (SS109).

 

[MaceWindu]

AR: Personally, I'd prefer my .308 M1A

+1

MaceWindu

 

[AZ Jeff]

mr78 stated: "It takes 5000 rds of practice per year just to maintain real defensive ability with the rifle (from either shoulder)."

That's the first time I have ever heard such a statistic. What's the source?

 

[AZ Jeff]

Now I understand. Quoting that level of practice generally only applies to either "operators" such as SWAT guys, or "serious competitors".

In my heyday as an IPSC shooter, I never managed to find time to put 5K rounds of practice ammo down range. I guess that's why I never saw my name the top of the lists at the Area or National matches.........

 

[R.H. Lee]

I've owned a Mini14 (the only one of the three available to me in California), and it's nearly worthless IMO. Substandard caliber in an inaccurate and unreliable platform.

My choice would be the AK (7.62x39). Inexpensive plentiful ammo and a weapon that takes a licking and still keeps ticking.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with either the AR or AK, but I'm always hearing AR owners complaining about jamming, etc. Never hear that from AK owners.

Also, didn't we use the 5.56 in the Vietnam war, you know, the one we LOST?

hehe.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Sure guys, the AR's of today are just like the ones of the Vietnam era...

Riiiiiiiight !!! Who do you personally know that has a jammomatic AR, anybody at all? Whose AR have you shot that is a jammomatic :banghead: Don't believe the internet BS about the AR failures....The reason the AR rules the modern battlefield as does the .223/5.56x45 is because it is effective at modern combat distances and quite lethal, not perfect but darn close !

The only thing the AK has going for it is the fact that it has looser tolerances, which give it crappy accuracy but more reliability..To say anything else about the AK having ANY other advantages over the AR platform(round, lethatlity, accuracy) and you are just kidding yourself !

 

[KriegHund]

Ar's are excellent guns IF you take good care of them.

jobu07-
"That got me to thinking. On my AR, the mags don't drop free when the mag release button is hit. And these are some well worn surplus mags. Colt, adventure lines, etc. However, with my Mini, the mags do drop free just as soon as I hit that mag release "

Hmm, cant deny that.

Ill tell you all what, as soon as i save up 80$ to buy 500 rnds from CTD i will run my mini 14 through all of em in as short a time as my six mags will let me, and ill post the results in a seperate thread.

Heck, i guess ill have to print up some real targets if im gonna do that...

 

[jobu07]

That would be an interesting study to read Krieg. Let us know when you get done.

I love my Mini and my AR. Both are a lot of fun to shoot. Of course the AK is fun too. We just all have to agree that each different rifle has its own advantages and disadvantages. But they'll all get the job done in the end so long as you practice enough to be proficient with them.

5,000 rounds a year might not be out of line. But you certainly dont' need to put that many downrange to be "efficient" with your rifle.

 

[jobu07]

I dont' anticipate WWIII breaking out on the streets anytime soon, so that's why I haven't practiced as much as the military does on firing while moving, night firing, firing from the off shoulder, etc. I don't think i'm going to be out looking for trouble, however, so my casual plinking and informal target practice in my humble back yard range is more than adequate for my needs. I applaud you for practicing to a higher standard.
Now, if for some reason WWIII does break out on the streets of rural upstate New York, I'd like to think I can handle my own. I don't put 5,000 rounds downrange each year. But I do put quite a few down there. I don't buy ammo by the case for nothing

 

[3rdpig]

I used to have 2 Mini-14's, now I have 4 AK's and 2 AR's and no Mini's. the Mini isn't a bad rifle but just not as good as the other two. It's no more accurate than an AK, not as tough, but is reliable until something breaks. It's no where near as accurate or as ergonomic as an AR and good mags are hard to find and expensive. As someone mentioned, the AR and AK have withstood years upon years of testing on the worlds battlefields and have been upgraded until both are as reliable and as mature as a battle rifle can be.

People who suggest that AK's have no problems of any kind, I suggest you look at the troubleshooting forum of any of the AK specific boards, it's full of people having problems with AK's, most of the problems are due to incorrect assembly or mismatched parts, but most of the AR problems are the same thing. A properly assembled AR will, for the first 1000 rounds after cleaning, be as reliable as any AK. After that, yes, it will probably need to be cleaned or at least have some CLP squirted into the bolt carrier and lug area.

To anyone who said that AR's are only reliable just after cleaning, I suggest you look at this video. (dial up warning, this video is 60+ megs!)

AR torture test

 

[TechBrute]

One side note. The jammomatic ARs that you hear about all the time are mostly build-ups by people trying to do things as cheaply as possible. There are people that will skimp $5 off the LPK so they can afford a railed forend, and then wonder why they are getting light strikes. They'll buy a kit from Model 1 Sales so they can buy optics, and then wonder why their AR is out of spec. These people will buy $400 flashlights, and then shoot Olympic and Wolf ammo and complain that they have problems. Old vietnam vets who complain about the ARs of their era haven't picked one up in 30 years. Half the people that whine about them haven't ever shot one, but the word of their buddy's friend's roommate's co-worker's husband's brother's uncle's third cousin (twice removed) is good enough for them. Summary: don't go cheap on the AR build.

ARs continue to evolve. There are superior parts, accessories, ammo, mags, optics, etc for the AR. The AK has pretty much continued on the same course for the last few decades since the demise of the Cold War.

Is the AK a bad rifle? No. It's an old rifle. It is what it is. The M14, AK, 1903, Garand, and many others are STILL great rifles. They are not progressing as the AR design is (minor updates to the M14 of late, excepted.)

And, as Bart said, there is tons of money in the development and proving of the AK and the AR. However, only one of them is still getting that attention.

Forget the Mini14.

 

[KriegHund]

"That would be an interesting study to read Krieg. Let us know when you get done."

Wont be till sometime next month though, but if anything goes wrong i will gladly concede relevant points.

3rdpig, that was an incredibly impressive video.

 

[Justang]

If you're in California the AR and AK aren't an option. And the Mini-14 is inferior to the Kel-Tec SU16... So if you are California, get the SU-16. If you are in a free state, then get both AR and AK.

 

[Farnham]

I don't have an AK (yet) so I won't speak to that one, but I've got a Rock River AR and a Mini-14. The Mini is fun, and it's never malfunctioned on me, but it's also never shot better than 6" groups* (if you can call them groups) at 100 yards.

The AR has only malfunctioned once to the point it was out of the game, when it ripped the case head off of an Olympic SS109*. That may have been (probably was) the ammo. The big difference between the Mini and the AR is accuracy. I've never been able to do the "one ragged hole" we all hear so much about, but even with the short CAR barrel, the AR keeps the groups within about 3 inches (seated position, slung up).

A few years practice in the Marine Corps also got me well acquainted with the AR platform, so I'm biased towards it from that, too.

S/F

Farnham

*one thing about that Olympic ammo, I bought a thousand rounds of it when I got my Mini (living in Cali, couldn't get an AR, since guys with SSBI's, years of service to their country, and no criminal record aren't to be trusted with EBR's) and the Mini shoots it all day long, flinging cases far and wide, and never fails to go bang. The AR though, hates it. FTF, no bang, dirty...guess that says something about the platforms, but I'm too lazy to figure it out.

 

[Waffen]

I told myself I wouldn't get involved.....

I personally own a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. I love the thing. I have never had problems with it, always goes boom when I pull the trigger. I have over 2000+ varmint kills behind it that should say something. 2-3MOA stock.

I do not own an AR. I have shot many of them and do like them. They are more accurate no doubt than the mini, however I just cannot bring myself to like the looks of them. (Personal preference) I'm old school like that.

AK's are nice as well, I have only shot 2 in my lifetime; I was not impressed very much by them, however that is probably because they were crappy models to begin with. The AK design seems to be continuing after close to 60 years of manufacturing, so that should say something.

Basically you cannot go wrong with any of them. There are a select few, but not many of us ride humvees into Karbala or Baghdad ever day, so what the hell does it matter? These people who keep going on and on about reliability like our lives REALLY depend on it make me sick.

I have said this in other threads and I will say it again, there is almost no chance that you will get killed because you chose an AR over an AK, or and AK over a Mini, or a Mini over an AR. And if you do, chances are you probably bit off more than you could chew.

There are reasons why this is such a hot debate. There are reasons each side feels so strongly. Basically it's all a matter of personal opinion, about like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. These days everybody makes a good car/gun just choose a flavor.

Now for the comedy reply:

Mini-14's are jam-o-matics that can't hit the side of a sky scraper. They also overheat after 1 round.

AR-15's are jam-o-matics that break if within a 5 ft radius of sand/mud/water.

AK's are inaccurate, thrown together pieces of crap.

 

[Ivy Mike]

My expierience with AR's is limited to friends who own them. Both are picky about ammo. One is a Bushmaster M4gery and the other a Colt (not sure what model) that looks like a standard GI issue weapon.
They don't like Wolf, but seem reliable with brass cased stuff.

agtman, you mentioned you'd rather have your M1A as well as the AK being more difficult to reload...don't they use the same kind of magazine catch? It really isn't that hard to unload and reload an AK quickly. You just have to practice.

I'll still stick with my AK pattern. It doesn't care what I feed it, will put the entire magazine into a torso sized target and function as a club on the guy standing behind the poor sap with 30 extra holes.

Try beating someone down with your AR.