AR15 - What kind of Groups with Iron Sights?

[repo]

Does anyone have some pictures of groupings from shooting stock iron-sights with an off-the-shelf AR? I want to know what might be achieved with some practice. I can't tell if my eyesight is too poor or if my technique is poor. I've always liked shooting handguns and plinking cans or whatever with iron sights, but I hate shooting bullseyes.

When I'm shooting my AR15 carbine my groups are about 2" at 25 yards. I can't really make out the target too well. I just aim for the the black blob, shifting focus between the target and the front-sight, then settling on front-sight focus and firing. It's hard to have confidence in hitting the same spot every time because really I cant see much when I'm focused on the front-sight. At 100 yards my groups are like 12". I'm using the small aperture and shooting off a sand bag using Wolf 55gr HP ammo.

I've always doubted my eyesight and actually went to an ophthalmologist for an exam recently. He basically dismissed me as a hypochondriac and said it wasn't worth getting a prescription because my eyes aren't that bad. I guess when he's dealing with cataracts and glaucoma all day it seems a little trivial to go in and say I want to shoot better.

 

[iamkris]

Your first problem is the Wolf ammo. You should not be expecting good groups with it...although 12" is a little excessive. 2" is a bit more than I would expect at 25 yards also but not way out of line.

If your eye doc says your vision is fine, sounds like you need to get used to the front-sight-in-focus/fuzzy-target thing. If you are basically pointing to the general area of a blob, you're not going to get anything close to good groups. You need to be precisely aiming at the same spot each time. Even a little difference in POA is going to blow out your groups.

Where are you aiming? At the center of the "blob"? If so, don't. You need to be using the "pumpkin on a fence post hold" or 6 o'clock hold. You want a thin line of white below the black circle and adjust the sights such that the POI is where you want it.

You need to know:

1. Position
2. Natural Point of Aim (NPOA)
3. Sight alignment
4. Sight picture
5. Breathing
6. Trigger control
7. Follow through

Wash, rinse, repeat


Check out this thread on sight alignment/sight picture. Go to my post #35 and click on the attachments. They will demo what a good sight picture is for aperature sights.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=258808&page=2&highlight=sight+picture

My M4-gery will do 4-5" with Winchester white box. I've never really found a load it likes yet and haven't yet started to load for it.

I also have a DCM AR15 built by White Oak Armament. With my handloads of 77 gr SMK over IMR4064, it easily does 0.75" or less at 100 yards with iron sights if I do my part.

You may want to get a smaller aperature but before going after an equipment solution, you may want to focus on technique...and get some better ammo.

 

[Onmilo]

Listen, I am not a big fan of pictures of targets.
Unless they are shot and pictured in front of affirming witnesses, target pictures are way too easy to fake.

Here is a simple fact.
Almost all AR15 rifles and clone rifles thereof that are properly assembled of good quality parts and built using good quality barrels are capable of grouping with iron sights better than most people can actually shoot.

There is a fibre optic front sight post available from a Company called Mounting Solutions.
Their Match front features a .060" wide front post with a .030" fibre optic rod and the Ultra Match front is but .050" with a .020" fibre optic rod.
One of these sights may improve your ability to actually pick up and define the front sight post on your rifle.
You can order these sight posts direct or from Brownells.
They aren't the cheapest front sights but the money may be well spent for you. HTH

 

[tbtrout]

It sounds to me like you are are shfting focus back and forth between your front and rear sights and your target. When you shoot you should have a crisp front sight picture and a blurry blob that is your target. Your eye will naturally center the front sight in the rear aperature.

Breathing also plays a part as well as trigger control. Remember to squeeze your trigger not pull it. You might want to search for BRASS-F it will help you maintain tighter groups:

B reath
R elax
A im
S top
S queeze

F ollow through

 

[Reyn]

It sounds to me like you are are shfting focus back and forth between your front and rear sights and your target

+1 It's easy to do. Sometimes you think you have complete focus on the front sight when you are actually shifting back and forth. Ive done it and found i was shifting at the last moment.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Shooting 55gr FMJ (other than Wolf) you are doing well to put everything into a 4" group at 100yds from a stable position like bench or prone. Shooting Wolf, I'd say a 6" group is well. Using match ammo, you can do tighter than that. For small groups, the key is not so much seeing your target as focusing on your front sight and holding it in relation to the target the same way every time (box the front sight with the same amount of white space around the post or use the pumpkin on a post method). Most of the time, I can't even make out the features of the target when I shoot irons - I just hold so the white paper background outlines the post the same way.

 

[Afy]

Depending on the rifle and what your goals are...

Single caliber + .01 inch for bench rest..
1/4 of an inch to 1 inch is good for factory manufactured accurate rifles.

1-2 inch for Mall snipers

<6 inches for hunting...

IMHO I know nothing...

 

[kcmarine]

GUHHHAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

I knew I was doing something wrong with my sight picture!!!!
Stupid, stupid, stupid...




:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Selfdfenz]

Back in the day they told us what you refer to as the 1st S
S stop

as actually
S slack.

Then again these were the M1/M14 generation/era instructors.

Just another Gument conspiracy I guess. I may be damaged for life.

S-

 

[Marion Cobretti]

10 shots, 70 seconds, 100 yards. Standard 20" AR-15. (Not National Match)

Rapid Prone stage of a match back in March.

95-1x, not my best but only target I have handy. About 2.25" Small groups are possible with irons. Trigger control, breathing and other aspects of breaking a clean shot are very important.

 

[funfaler]

Hey! There is NO reason that you can not get 1 inch groups at 25 meters, equal to 4" groups at 100 yards. This a rather easliy LEARNED skill for the average shooter, with an average rifle, shooting average (Wolf) ammo.

Your eye sight need only be good enough to focus on the front sight post! The targe is supposed to be a little fuzzy, but the front sight MUST be clear.

Try to get yourself to an Appleseed shoot! They will give you the skills to be able to make 1" groups at 25 meters, 4" groups at 100 yards, and 20" groups at 500 yards (on a standard torso target). Without a bench rest or sand bags or even a bipod.

It is a skill that most ANY shooter can obtain.

PM me if you really want to learn such skills, I will turn you on to a super deal!

 

[distra]

I have recently shot 0.29"-0.50" groups @50yds with my Stag lower and model1sales .223 upper with a rear flip up rear sight using 50gr Hornady VMAX bullets. Have you bench rested the rifle? Those groups seem a little large almost like something is loose or not sighted in well.

 

[Mr White]

An MR-31 target (600 yd target scaled to 100 yd) The black circle is about 6.75" diameter. Shot from slowfire prone. Scored a 188


Another MR-31. Shot from slowfire prone. Scored a 195.


An SR-21 (300 yd target scaled to 100 yd) Black circle is still about 6.75" diameter. Shot from rapidfire prone. Scored a 99.


These were from my 20" 1:8 floated M2 using 62gr Sierra HPBT handloads.

 

[ocabj]

Both targets are 10 round strings each, slow fire, 200 yards standing.

1st one is a 97-1x and the 2nd a 98-2x.

 

[Outlaws]

Wolf ammo is NOT the problem.

 

[lionking]

quote;Listen, I am not a big fan of pictures of targets.
Unless they are shot and pictured in front of affirming witnesses, target pictures are way too easy to fake.

it may be possible but I doubt many would do that here...unless they have some personality issues of being better than who they really are ,what would be the point?They would still have to look at themselves in the mirror.

I do enjoy people posting their targets,it gives me a idea what to expect from a certain firearm and load,and it inspires me to become better then I am.

Mr Whites 3rd photo,my friends Bushmaster Dissapator produced the same type grouping at 100yds with USA brand ammo while my Colt H-bar is slighly less (not much less) accurate then the Dissapator.When ever I can try out my new Bushmaster M4 I'll post the result.

If you are getting such huge groups at 25yds though,unless the rifle is seriously malfunctioning,you are doing something wrong.Never used Wolf .223 so cant comment on that .

 

[lionking]

I will say this though,I tend to shoot center mass as compared to 6 o' clock.Sometimes depending the firearm I do use 6 o 'clock.

I have found though that M1,M14,M1903A3 and M16 aperature type sights are the best for target shooting in my opinion.The front sight naturally centers itself to the aperature for me.

 

[Mr White]

Nice targets Ocabj. Offhand kills me. Usually low-mid 80s. You seem to have it down pretty good. Good shootin.

But, uh... isn't the second target a 97 also? I see 9s at 1, 2:30 and 8. Trying to sneak a point past us, were you?


Edit
***************

Oops. My bad.
Looking closer, looks like theres a 10 at 8:00 that I missed, and the 9 at 2:30 looks like it could be something other than a bullet hole.

Sorry.

 

[Outlaws]

asdfasdfasdfdf

 

[Slamfire]

Stock Box Armalite M15A2 Match rifle, one hundred yards prone, with a sling, 20 rounds, shot in a match.

 

[Lucky]

iamkris Doesn't that style of sighting ONLY work for shooting bullseyes? Repo said he hated doing that, and if he decides to shoot gophers some day, he's going to have to wait for a really fat round one to come along, or else he won't be able to target them right. For plinking cans like he said, ordinary sight picture is better I think.

My eyes aren't great either, but I found that outdoor light is a big big deal. Indoor light is too weak for me to focus on sights properly, but outdoor my eyes can use.

Repo I'm in the same basic boat, was shooting AR15 at 25 yards, shooting a full mag every time (lol). With supports and everything I got one group of that looked good - so I know the rifle can do it. And I'm using A1 sights

That said, iamkris's recommended sight picture is what I was using at the time - but not with a bullseye. I was having trouble with the bullseye like you, so I flipped it over and drew something easier to aim off of. If you want a cheap easy target you take a piece of 8x11" paper and draw 5 lines down with a felt marker, then cross them with 5 lines across. Super easy, and it he's so right about seeing the colour contrasts for markers.

What I'm hoping to get to is to put balance the black square on the front sight, with that sliver of white under it, and then have the bullets hit right on the bottom of that square where I am aiming. In that picture they were actually higher than I wanted. I'm like you, the bullseyes are for shooting for zeroing in and when there's nothing funner to shoot.


Lol one funny thing is that people see you and at first think you're drawing a cross on the back of your target, one guy asked, in a kind of dubious way, if I was religious.

 

[Browns Fan]

This info is very timely for me 'cause the IDPA match I shoot is gonna have a carbine side match this saturday! Thanks, guys!