Are AR-15s or AKs drop safe?

[dogma512]

The consensus on THR seems to be that shotguns are generally not drop safe, thus one should not keep a round in the chamber. So what about AR-15s and AKs? Certainly soldiers keep a round chambered while in the field where the likelihood of a 'drop' is fairly high. As far as I know, firing pin/striker blocks as are common in pistols are unheard of in rifles. So what gives? Is pistol drop safety over hyped?

 

[nalioth]

AR15 and AK rifles have a free floating firing pin.

No firing pin block. I don't know of any military rifle with this feature.

There are a few higher end AKs with spring loaded firing pins. This does not make them "drop safe", but "drop resistant".

 

[trueblue1776]

Nope, better stop eating pork rinds at the rifle range.

 

[DMK]

Certainly soldiers keep a round chambered while in the field where the likelihood of a 'drop' is fairly high.

Military primers are generally harder than civilian primers.

 

[General Geoff]

I was under the impression that soldiers did not carry their rifles with a round chambered until a threat was imminent.

 

[jerkface11]

If they're not drop safe how are you supposed to smack someone with the butt of the rifle?

 

[kcmarine]

Shoot them first. Just a guess.

 

[JesseL]

So what gives? Is pistol drop safety over hyped?

Yes, very much so.

 

[rcmodel]

If they're not drop safe how are you supposed to smack someone with the butt of the rifle?

That would retract the firing pin, not make it fire.

Yes, very much so.

A big +1 on that!


rcmodel

 

[dogma512]

This is very interesting, does any know of any sort of drop testing with service long guns?

Does anyone keep a round chambered in a non-pistol HD gun?

 

[Oohrah]

Unless there is a firing pin safety block or the type like on 1911s where
grip safety must be depressed, most likely it is possible for them to go
off, if the safety isn't engaged. Don't know if the trigger system and Glock
and Savage follows the same, but I suspect this system also must have
the trigger depressed to come off safety. If in doubt, do everything in
your power NOT TO DROP IT. With the safety engaged on the AK or
Military types, I would venture to say you have a safety level. I think
California has some kind of drop test on used handguns, and they can not
be resold unless a drop test is done to that particular brand and model.
Nothing on long guns as far as I know

 

[dogma512]

Unless there is a firing pin safety block or the type like on 1911s where
grip safety must be depressed, most likely it is possible for them to go
off, if the safety isn't engaged. Don't know if the trigger system and Glock
and Savage follows the same, but I suspect this system also must have
the trigger depressed to come off safety. If in doubt, do everything in
your power NOT TO DROP IT. With the safety engaged on the AK or
Military types, I would venture to say you have a safety level. I think
California has some kind of drop test on used handguns, and they can not
be resold unless a drop test is done to that particular brand and model.
Nothing on long guns as far as I know

I meant even with the safety engaged. As far as I can picture it in my head, nothing in either design physically locks up the firing pin when the safety engaged. So the risk of a "drop-fire" should be the same with or without the safety being enabled.

 

[JesseL]

One thing to note about the firing pins in the AR and AK designs; while they are floating, they are not inertial.

Consequently, if they are dropped the firing pin will not have an opportunity to get a "running start" at the primer the way an inertial pin can, and they will not have the momentum of the hammer behind them lending force to their impact.

So to have a drop cause a discharge, the rifle would have to be falling significantly faster than the speed of the hammer in normal operation, and land directly on the muzzle, and hit a very hard/rigid surface.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

The G3 is just about impossable to fire from drop or other impact. I suspect its the ungodly strong firing pin spring and fairly light and robust hammer/sear setup combined with the 10 pound trigger return spring though.

 

[DnPRK]

The act of chambering a cartridge in an AR or AK (or SKS, M-1, M-14) will dimple the primer from the free floating firing pin. I suspect the velocity of the bolt closing greatly exceeds what you would get if you dropped it on its muzzle from the roof of a one story building.

 

[W.E.G.]

When you drop a gun on its muzzle, and the gun does "go off," where does the bullet go?

What condition is the bullet in after it is six inches beyond the muzzle?

Is there any documented incident of anybody EVER being injured from a gun that discharged after being dropped on the muzzle?

 

[tpe187]

General Geoff - Solders typically do not have a round chambered while inside the wire, unless they are performing a duty which requires it. All weapons are loaded just before leaving the wire.

The M4/M16 and AR15's have an aluminum firing pin for a reason. It does not have the mass to ignite a military primer if dropped. Now, if the hammer somehow managed to fall, yes the weapon would fire.

The reason for all the drop safe systems on pistols is because they are typically carried in a holster and have a greater posibility of being dropped accidently, whereas a rifle is typically carried all the time, when loaded and slung just a little. The funny thing is that so many people are afraid of carrying a pistol with a round chambered that a lot don't chamber a round until they think they will need it, which is often too late. Got to love those liability folks and lack of training.

Just my thoughts.

Tom

 

[JesseL]

The M4/M16 and AR15's have an aluminum firing pin for a reason.

You might want to double check your facts on that statement. I've never seen a firing pin (AR/M-16 or otherwise) that wasn't steel or titanium.

 

[tpe187]

JesseL, you are correct. They are steel. For some reason I thought they were aluminum. Thanks for the catch. You learn something everyday!

 

[1 old 0311]

Hi General,

In the rear your weapon would be cleared, but in the field you are loaded with a full mag, plus one in the chamber. On patrol the point man usually has the safety off, the others would be on.

 

[kBob]

I have seen M-16A1 rifles fire on bolt closing. The position of the safety had no bearing on the event. Call it a sensitive primer, but the round being chambered fires. I have seen this with loading the weapon on a range and have seen mechanically sound guns "double" when the round after a single shot goes off un intentionally.

In my Infantry Company in 1974 a gate gaurd was severly injured when a rifle with a loaded magazine in the weapon was dropped from a height of about 3 feet. The M-16A1 rifle had one of the older "rubber" butt plates with out the trap and the butt struck first with the barrel pointed straight up. The bolt ran back far enough to chamber a round. We confirmed this later by recreating the event and when dropped from the height of the same window ledge butt first both the rifles with the rubber butt and the hard trapdoor butt generally did feed from the magazine, though as we used a dummy round there was no chance of the rifle firing.

The trooper bent over to catch the falling rifle and was struck by a round of M193 ammo. He did manage to stay on duty about fifteen minutes including opening an closing his gate until someone noted the blood and opened his M1967 body armor he then rapidly lost the ability to stand and remain on duty.

Oddly I have not seen a fire on loading inciedent in civilian life, but have seen the occassional double I could find no other explanation for.

It puts me in mind of the importance of the old NRA GOlden RUle of GUn Safety "Always point the muzzle in a safe direction"

I have seen the resuts of a round of M193 ball striking a concrete floor at zero angle or ninty degrees how ever you choose to say it. It left a small crater about one inch across and not that deep and the bullet was reduced to small as in sand sized fragments......unfortunately the bullet passed through a GI boot and the GI foot in it on the way. Moron holding the muzzle straight down on his boot and holding the butt at waist level. The rifle had supposedly been twice cleared including on rodding ("No brass or ammo Drill Sar'nt!") and was about to be turned in. SOP in the unit was to leave hammer down on an empty chamber and hamer down so the safety on the M-16A1 would not engage. His was on safe. When this was pointed out he flipped the selector to fire and pulled the trigger. He was talking to me at the time and after the shot I recovered the rifle and made it clear, then rendered aid. Point is though that the bullet did not do well AFTER striking the concrete... did fine before.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[jlbraun]

I have heard of very light (6oz) competition triggers on ARs not being drop safe - eg. while the firing pin won't hit the primer by itself, the trigger itself will actually be actuated by the gun being dropped on its butt.

 

[phaed]

I was under the impression that soldiers did not carry their rifles with a round chambered until a threat was imminent.

usually up to the commander/leader. you'll have different carry conditions for different places. but when you are out on mission, there's generally one in the pipe.

p.s. OPSEC fellas

 

[trueblue1776]

p.s. OPSEC fellas

back when I was on a seek and engage for the muffin man hiding in the candy cane forest, our gobstoppers were topped off with poprocks.