Wolf in AR and AK rifles

[strat81]

After reading this thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3997894 , I wondered why Wolf (and other russian steel-cased ammo) is maligned for use in ARs but not AKs. I know the two actions are very different, but what is so different about them that people generally have no problems with Wolf (lacquered or poly) in their AK clones but report all kinds of problems (broken extractors, worn chambers, seized bolts) in ARs?


Note: This is not a "Which is best?" thread. Keep it clean, folks!

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The first thing that pops to my mind is that a direct impingement rifle is going to be more sensitive to how a case obturates in the chamber. The brass has to shrink away from the chamber within a relatively narrow time window and as heat builds up, that window shrinks.

I think the main issue with Wolf has something to do with heat transfer from steel chamber to steel case and the Wolf steel not shrinking down in the same way as brass.

Of course the AK has a very strong recoil cycle. On slow-motion video, you can see the receiver cover rattle as the bolt comes back hard. I think that same thing is probably handy for extracting cases that may be outside the ideal function window.

Having said that, I've seen both AKs and piston ARs have issues with Wolf. It seems to be much more rare in AKs; but heat and Wolf ammo seem to kill a lot of rifles besides direct impingement ARs (and note that even many DI ARs run fine with heavy diets of Wolf - so who can say?). Of course all of this is just speculation on my part... a SWAG if you will.

 

[K3]

Has anyone ever had an SKS choke on Wolf?

 

[Shadowangel]

I've shot thousands of rounds of Wolf through an SKS, an AR-15, and an AK. Never had a single jam in any of them.

 

[Tin Gizel]

I don't have the answers you're looking for other than AR's are designed for brass cased ammo. AK's are designed for steel cased ammo.

Commie ammo for commie guns.
Brass ammo for US guns.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

I don't think it's a direct impingement vs. gas piston issue.

Most AR15s fire .223/5.56mm, which has a very straight walled case. In contrast, most AKs shoot 5.45x39 or 7.62x39, both of which have more taper to the case.

Steel cases don't seem to spring back as much after firing compared to brass. Thus, a straight-walled steel case will be harder to extract than an equivalent brass case.

That said, I've had no functional issues from Wolf .223 in my Mini-14 or Arsenal SAM5 AK, and it seems to run fine in my Colt AR15 since the latter rifle got broken in.

 

[possum]

you have to remember also that the aks and com block guns were designed around the steel cased ammo and that isn't the case with american ar type rifles. with that said i have zero issues with wolf or other steel cased ammo in my ar's or my ak.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Steel cases don't seem to spring back as much after firing compared to brass. Thus, a straight-walled steel case will be harder to extract than an equivalent brass case.

I've thought that too; but I've seen the same rifles that choked on Wolf eat the steel-cased Hornady Practice ammo with no problems. Of course, it is Hornday vs. Wolf; but still you would think the basic principle would be the same.

 

[benEzra]

I personally think it's a combination of case taper, and the AK's beefier gas system. Compare the cross-sectional area of an AR-15's gas key to the cross-sectional area of an AK's gas piston face. Then compare the mass of an AK piston/bolt carrier assembly to that of an AR. The AK is just a more robust extraction system to start with, IMO.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Let me throw something else into the mix. What about Baurnal zinc-coated steel case? Even Baurnal steel case itself? It's reportedly better than Wolf, and reports of it's "silver bear" line have been pretty nice over at FAL files.

 

[eab]

It has to do with the poly coating that is currently applied to new manufacture wolf ammo.

Back, about 2 years ago and before wolf ammo was laquar coated. This ran fine in ARs and you had no problems. However Wolf switched over to a new poly coating. What happens in ARs is when you leave a round in a hot champer the coating melts and kinda glues the round into the chamber. The only way to get it out is with a rod down the barrel.

The AK, for reasons I do not know does not speicificaly know, (more diffrent extracter more violent extraction, differnt chamber, etc.. do not have this problem and eat wolf all day long.

As someone said before, Commie ammo for commie guns, American ammo for American guns. Stick to that rule and you are good to go.

 

[average_shooter]

Back, about 2 years ago and before wolf ammo was laquar coated. This ran fine in ARs and you had no problems. However Wolf switched over to a new poly coating. What happens in ARs is when you leave a round in a hot champer the coating melts and kinda glues the round into the chamber. The only way to get it out is with a rod down the barrel.

Except, from what I understand it's the opposite. The older lacquered cases were more likely to melt and glue themselves in the chamber than the new plastic-coated stuff.

 

[Joe Demko]

Except that the lacquer coating was never demonstrated to actually melt. A couple people here and at TFL reported heating cases with a torch to temperatures far above what would be encountered in a rifle without the lacquer melting.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

The old wolf/barnual/bear laquer coating basicly vaporizes long before it becomes anything that could gum a chamber.

some of it has to do with the steel case material itself, when brass is flash heated and cooled, it instantly softens some, when steel is is subjected to the same thing it becomes more brittle/hardens. This is compounded by the significantly more favorible taper, and design of the weapon (gas system tolerences, heat transfer to chamber area, ect...) and you have the problems or aspects that are being spoken of.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

As Joe mentions, I tried heating up an empty case in the oven at 500 degrees for a considerable time. No lacquer came off. The old lacquered Wolf had the same problem as the new polymer Wolf - the cases stuck in the chamber.

Originally, I would have said that the problem was the thick red neck sealant on the Wolf. This did come off and leave a pink, gummy mess in the chamber. However, Wolf stopped using the thick red neck sealant even before they went to a polymer coating and the rounds still stick.

 

[spiroxlii]

My Chinese SKS has eaten thousands of rounds of Wolf steel case ammo without even the slightest problem.

My Yugo SKS never fails to feed or eject, but sometimes it will fail to fire. Examining the rounds that don't fire reveals a solid primer strike, which would seem to indicate that it's the ammo's fault and not the rifle's fault. I don't know why it never happens to my Chinese SKS, though.

 

[jerkface11]

My AR (DPMS upper) eats a steady diet of silver bear soft points. So far it hasn't complained once. Though it does smell bad.

 

[jpwilly]

I've had Wolf steel case ammo stick in my AR once is was very hot from fireing...I was in the middle of the 9th 30rnd mag within 10-15min window at the range. Rifle was HOT! A cleaning rod was used to remove the stuck case. There was not any residue in the chamber...just hot steel sticking to hot steel.

 

[strat81]

Follow up questions:
Do people still hate Wolf ammo if it is used in a 7.62x39 AR upper?
Do people hate Wolf .223 fired out of an AK chambered for it?

It seems there are two predominant reasons:
-Shape of the x39 case versus the .223 case
-The rather violent recoil and extraction of an AK compared to an AR