Are BP firearms really firearms?

[josiewales]

I have heard around that a black powder firearm is not classified under federal law as a firearm. For instance , I have a friend who, as a kid, was into gangs, drugs etc. spent time in jail and is now felon. He was told by a friend that a felon could own a BP firearm. However he cannot own any part of a firearm including mags, furniture and even EMPTY CASINGS!
I am not a felon just curious. Can an felon own a BP and if so can an underage
individual own a BP? Remember I am not asking for your personel/ethical opinion. I am asking for cold hard facts.Thanks

Josey Wales ,bank robber, Johnny Reb and Outlaw.

 

[Oldnamvet]

http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2012/jan/27/ban-felons-carrying-firearms-includes-antique-guns/

This was discussed a lot a week or so ago.

 

[BE Wild Willy]

My personal opinion is that I wouldn't want to be on the business end of any BP, classified as a firearm or not.

 

[AlexanderA]

Black powder, per se, has no legal significance under federal law as to the classification of a firearm. It's just a type of propellant. Federal law says that antique (and thus, unregulated) firearms are of two types: (1) any gun actually manufactured before 1899, including cartridge guns, and (2) any modern replica of a gun type originally made before 1899, as long as it doesn't use commercially available cartridges. Thus, an original Colt Peacemaker made in, say, 1890, is an antique even though it uses cartridges, as is a modern reproduction of a Colt 1860 Army, that uses percussion caps.

 

[mykeal]

Here are the facts, devoid of any personal opinions or interpretations:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Of course, this is the FEDERAL law; many states and local municipalities have their own versions which may be quite different.

By the way, if what you really want are just cold, hard, facts, in my opinion you're foolish to ask a forum. Internet forums specialize in opinions and are only very rarely sources of cold, hard facts. In the case of gun law, you're much better off talking to a lawyer who specializes in gun law than going to the internet.

 

[rdstrain49]

Mykeal said it right.

 

[mykeal]

Black powder, per se, has no legal significance under federal law as to the classification of a firearm.

That's incorrect. Please refer to Title 18 USC Chapter 44 Paragraph 921 (a)(16)(C):
The term "antique firearm" means...any muzzleloading rifle...shotgun...or pistol which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.

 

[andrewstorm]

antiques.........

...Are unregulated by g c a of 1968,however,states are much more restrictive and many have a saving clause that states any antique firearm used in a crime is for all prosecution purposes modern,when I asked the MI. d n r They said felons and domestic violence convicts,can only hunt with a bow and arrow.....out west a supreme Court judge said no to felons possessing antiques, the point is felon =no guns.tell your friend to get a lawyer and try for expungement.

 

[AlexanderA]

That's incorrect. Please refer to Title 18 USC Chapter 44 Paragraph 921 (a)(16)(C):
The term "antique firearm" means...any muzzleloading rifle...shotgun...or pistol which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.

Well, that's subparagraph (C), which has relatively limited applicability (basically applies to non-replica modern muzzleloading firearms which don't have frames or receivers). More important are subparagraphs (A) and (B), for purposes of which the type of powder is irrelevant.

 

[ChrisHarris]

Depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is.

 

[BCRider]

As I understand it they do not fall under a lot of the firearms laws within the US.

But walk into a bank and point it at a teller and ask for some money and I suspect the folks that take you away will see it as a firearm....

 

[StrawHat]

Get your record expunged or sealed, whatever your state makes provision for. Once that is done you should have no problem.

 

[mykeal]

Well, that's subparagraph (C), which has relatively limited applicability (basically applies to non-replica modern muzzleloading firearms which don't have frames or receivers). More important are subparagraphs (A) and (B), for purposes of which the type of powder is irrelevant.

Really? Because that's not what it says.

Do you have some case law, or BATF letter or memorandum that takes that position? It would be very helpful to the black powder community if you'd publish that data.

 

[buttrap]

This is totaly in the gray zone. If no state law or county law is banning it then its totaly legal but then it goes to intent too. In a home a fellon can have a BP gun and use it for defence but out in public thats jail time unless its a rifle and they have a hunting tag. If you are are a felon you really have no defence as all they need is to show intent,40 pound overhead projector thats under the coat thats concield weapon charge.

 

[AlexanderA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderA
Well, that's subparagraph (C), which has relatively limited applicability (basically applies to non-replica modern muzzleloading firearms which don't have frames or receivers). More important are subparagraphs (A) and (B), for purposes of which the type of powder is irrelevant.

Really? Because that's not what it says.

Do you have some case law, or BATF letter or memorandum that takes that position? It would be very helpful to the black powder community if you'd publish that data.

Read paragraph (16) closely. (Subparagraphs (A) and (B) were part of the original GCA '68, and subparagraph (C) was added later to cover a situation that was not covered in (A) or (B).) Subparagraph (A) is a blanket exemption, as antiques, for all firearms actually made before 1899, regardless of ignition system or propellant type. Subparagraph (B) extends this to replicas of firearms in (A), provided they don't use commercially available cartridges. Finally, subparagraph (C) covers post-1898 muzzleloaders that are not replicas of those in (A), provided they use black powder (or substitute) and don't have a frame or receiver. The black powder requirement applies only to the firearms defined in (C).

Think about it -- Mauser, Lebel, or Krag rifles (for example) actually made before 1899 are clearly non-regulated antiques, even though they use (and were designed for) smokeless powder cartridges. (This is why the black powder requirement doesn't apply to subparagraph (A), or (B) for that matter.) Maybe I'm not explaining this as clearly as I could be.

 

[Rail Driver]

It depends on the locality. Laws are different in different places. You'll have to look it up for your location. Check handgunlaw.us for more information.

Some places they're not firearms at all
Some places they're not firearms UNLESS THEY ARE LOADED
and some places, they're treated like any other firearm.

 

[mykeal]

The black powder requirement applies only to the firearms defined in (C)

Well, yeah, but somehow I can't see how that translates into:

Black powder, per se, has no legal significance under federal law as to the classification of a firearm.

Seems to me that you've contradicted yourself there. Yes, Paragraph C has limited applicability - so do paragraphs A and B, otherwise there wouldn't be a paragraph C - you said so yourself. And frankly, your opinion of which paragraph is 'more important' doesn't have any effect on whether or not Paragraph C has legal significance. It's part of the law.

Maybe I'm not explaining this as clearly as I could be.

Or maybe I'm just dense this evening. What am I missing?

 

[scrat]

laws are different state to state. In ca. a black powder firearm is considered a firearm. If you have a felony in ca you can not own a black powder firearm nor a smokeless powder firearm. Problem i see is that people with felonies figure this out and guess what they want to shoot black powder now. kinda screws it up for us the people who are law abiding. especially if some day we have to go through the same junk you have to go through to purchase a smokeless firearm. I guess i would at the same time laugh my head off if i heard on the 10 oclock news a guy doing a drive by with an 1851 navy.

real black powder shooters are more than just that. i shoot black powder i make it i reload i cast my own. i do my own repairs. heck if they did it 150 years ago i do it today. just this weekend i decided i wanted to make bread the old way. so did a lot of reading then my boys and i took out the bowls and 5 hours later we had two long loafs of bread made in our kitchen the old way. Now if i can just figure out how to make reliable caps. i have been reading alot. there is something called the armstrong mix. i am thinking of trying it out i just need to get a tap o cap

 

[mulh222]

Yes, black powder instruments are considered "guns" in New Jersey. In fact anything that propels a solid projectile might be callled a firearm. I'm afraid to cut my lawn without a bag in case a small rock is discharged and leaves my property line. I might be charged with assault with a deadly weapon!

 

[josiewales]

Then WHY the H@#% don't you move ?

 

[Jim Watson]

A lot of jurisdictions have legal language about "for the purpose of going armed" that they can apply to about anything, like a tool away from a worksite, and would use to prosecute a released felon with a cap and ball.

 

[Tinpan58]

The laws very from state to state, in cal antiques that fire rim fire or center fire ammo are firearms, muzzle loaded or cap and ball are not. The bottom line is they cane really do what the want depending on your intent. Computers aren't regulated but hackers are ordered not to own computers all the time. years ago my sister had a boyfriend that got in trouble all the time, and he was once arrested for possession of a toy tomahawk. So if you are up to no good and have a screw driver in your pocket you will go to jail.


Up until this year cal. was an open carry state, the gun could not be loaded but you could open carry it. So some groups of people were walking into restaurants and around town showing they could carry their guns around, people were getting scared calling the police, wasting police resources, drawing unneeded attention, so now they can no longer open carry. I like being able to buy my bp guns online having the brown truck pulling up and giving them to me with out going thru allot of bs to get them. About a month ago their was that amish girl kill a mile 1/2 away from some idiot cleaning his bp gun shooting it in the air. Then there was the nevada supreme court ruling with the felon and a bp rifle in the back seat. All we need now is some stupid gang banger running around with a bp gun to screw things up for every one, Laws and regulations go only one direction more and more. This is only my opinion on the subject.

 

[Burt Blade]

The problem with legal questions like the original post, is that the persons answering such are rarely actual practicing attorneys in that particular field. I have noticed that the occasional one that does answer often omits that professional detail, unless specifically asked. Since they get paid to answer legal questions, and there can be consequences for doing so, I can understand not giving away legal advice for free in a forum.

Bad legal advice is often worse than none. Want a good answer? Ask a good lawyer, and be prepared to pay a good price. The law is out of my scope of practice.

And no, I won’t design your data center online for free, either.

 

[Jim K]

Folks keep failing to understand that some laws regulate the purchase or possession of a firearm. Others regulate what can be done with a firearm.

As far as purchase/ownership is concerned, the federal and most state laws exempt non-cartridge and some antique firearms from the law or impose a lesser degree of regulation.

As far as laws on carrying weapons, assault with a deadly weapon, armed robbery, and the like, I know of no law that addresses the type of firearm, the method of loading, or the ignition system. A 15th century matchlock is treated the same as a Glock if you choose to stick up the local convenience store with it.

Jim

 

[jeepnik]

Depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is.

Spoken like a lawyer. Are you?