Are most of the guys who sing the praises of Browning High Powers 1911 lovers?
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SharpsDressedMan
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One advantage of the Browning Hi Power over the CZ75 is being able to jam the front end of the slide under the barrel rearward on an object and fully chamber a round, should you lose function of one arm/hand. Basically a one hand chambering without grabbing the slide. The CZ will not cycle back far enough to pick up the round off the magazine.
Husker_Fan
Member
Believe it or not, I've used that technique after I had surgery on my support side shoulder.
SharpsDressedMan
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That technique would be a good argument AGAINST guide rods.
BHPshooter
Member
My favorite handgun is the BHP, but the 1911 is a very close second. Both, in my eyes, are masterpieces, and what's not to love about the identical manual of arms?
I have always viewed the development of the Hi Power from the perspective that 3 people worked on it: John Browning, Dieudonne Saive, and John Browning (posthumously).
It is true that when JMB died, the Grand Puissance (as it was then known) was striker fired... it also had a slide running inside the frame rails.
During the period from 1922 to Browning's death in 1926, it is unclear how much of the development work was done by Browning and how much was done by Saive, as JMB was also working on his Superposed shotgun. From what I understand from the material available, I am inclined to think that Saive had more to do with the pistol, although Browning wasn't out of the picture by any means.
When the 1911 patents, owned by Colt's, expired in 1928, FN leadership told Saive to take the most desireable features of the JMB's 1911 and combine them with the best features of the Grand Puissance in a new design (the Saive-Browning model of 1928). This model initially had the 1911 barrel bushing and recoil spring plug, which was superseded with the fixed BHP-type bushing in about 1931.
By late 1933 or early 1934, the Hi Power was finished and ready to be produced, but due to the economic depression, it wasn't a big hit until Belgium's own military adopted it in 1935.
Really, I don't care which person did more work on the Hi Power -- in my opinion, those two men were probably the two biggest mechanical geniuses in firearm history. The Hi Power is the child of two royal families. On one side you have such relatives as the M2, the BAR, and the 1911, and on the other, you have things like the FN49 and the FAL. Pretty proud heritage, if you ask me.
Wes
I have always viewed the development of the Hi Power from the perspective that 3 people worked on it: John Browning, Dieudonne Saive, and John Browning (posthumously).
It is true that when JMB died, the Grand Puissance (as it was then known) was striker fired... it also had a slide running inside the frame rails.
During the period from 1922 to Browning's death in 1926, it is unclear how much of the development work was done by Browning and how much was done by Saive, as JMB was also working on his Superposed shotgun. From what I understand from the material available, I am inclined to think that Saive had more to do with the pistol, although Browning wasn't out of the picture by any means.
When the 1911 patents, owned by Colt's, expired in 1928, FN leadership told Saive to take the most desireable features of the JMB's 1911 and combine them with the best features of the Grand Puissance in a new design (the Saive-Browning model of 1928). This model initially had the 1911 barrel bushing and recoil spring plug, which was superseded with the fixed BHP-type bushing in about 1931.
By late 1933 or early 1934, the Hi Power was finished and ready to be produced, but due to the economic depression, it wasn't a big hit until Belgium's own military adopted it in 1935.
Really, I don't care which person did more work on the Hi Power -- in my opinion, those two men were probably the two biggest mechanical geniuses in firearm history. The Hi Power is the child of two royal families. On one side you have such relatives as the M2, the BAR, and the 1911, and on the other, you have things like the FN49 and the FAL. Pretty proud heritage, if you ask me.
Wes
KodiakBeer
member
Browning submitted two designs for the Hi Power to FN at the same time. The call was for a competition for a new auto for the French army.
Design number two was the one accepted by FN. Design number one was filed away. Somehow, the blueprints for design number one surfaced long before the actual (number two design) did. That mistake has created a lot of confusion over the years as to what JMB contributed vs what Saive contributed.
I have a digital copy of the original Hi Power design (Design #2) submitted by JMB some place. If anyone is really interested, I'll dig it up and post it. But, suffice to say that many of the concepts attributed to Saive were in fact in the original design (#2). For example, Saive is credited with the double column magazine because design #1 (the one NOT accepted) had a single column magazine.
Yet, the original design number 2 (the one accepted) had the double column magazine.
Design number 2 is instantly recognizable as the BHP we know today just by glancing at the blueprint. Saive shortened the barrel and grip slightly (making it a 13 round mag instead of the original 15 rounder submitted by JMB). Saive added the mag disconnect, because the French wanted that. Saive converted the striker fired design to a hammer gun, also because the French wanted that.
None of that mattered because the French chose a French designed pistol called the MAS 35, which disappeared into obscurity during the war. Everybody else wanted the Hi Power.
As far as pistols today go, almost all of them are copies of the HI Power and/or 1911. It's all Browning! Even the Glock is very much a copy of the Hi Power. The action mechanism if is pure Hi Power. The striker design is stolen directly from the original design as submitted by JMB, before it was changed to a hammer fired gun by Saive.
All modern (successful) military and police pistols were designed by JMB. Period.
Design number two was the one accepted by FN. Design number one was filed away. Somehow, the blueprints for design number one surfaced long before the actual (number two design) did. That mistake has created a lot of confusion over the years as to what JMB contributed vs what Saive contributed.
I have a digital copy of the original Hi Power design (Design #2) submitted by JMB some place. If anyone is really interested, I'll dig it up and post it. But, suffice to say that many of the concepts attributed to Saive were in fact in the original design (#2). For example, Saive is credited with the double column magazine because design #1 (the one NOT accepted) had a single column magazine.
Yet, the original design number 2 (the one accepted) had the double column magazine.
Design number 2 is instantly recognizable as the BHP we know today just by glancing at the blueprint. Saive shortened the barrel and grip slightly (making it a 13 round mag instead of the original 15 rounder submitted by JMB). Saive added the mag disconnect, because the French wanted that. Saive converted the striker fired design to a hammer gun, also because the French wanted that.
None of that mattered because the French chose a French designed pistol called the MAS 35, which disappeared into obscurity during the war. Everybody else wanted the Hi Power.
As far as pistols today go, almost all of them are copies of the HI Power and/or 1911. It's all Browning! Even the Glock is very much a copy of the Hi Power. The action mechanism if is pure Hi Power. The striker design is stolen directly from the original design as submitted by JMB, before it was changed to a hammer fired gun by Saive.
All modern (successful) military and police pistols were designed by JMB. Period.
Seems like a bit of an overstatement. I'd consider the H&K P7 series to have been pretty succesful; what part of that design is a JMB contribution?
KodiakBeer
member
I'd hardly call the P7 a successful design, but it is striker fired which is copied from the original Hi Power design. It's blowback, which can be found in any number of JMB designs, though the gas retard system is probably original.
mokin
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I love my BHP but I'm only neutral about 1911s.
johnnydollar
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Loosedhorse
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I think this is a little like asking, "Are most of the guys who sing the praises of fine cigars also lovers of great bourbons?"
Well, they certainly sold a heck of a lot of them to the police in Europe. And there are still many, many of them that are great shooting pieces today with many thousands of rounds through them. I don't know what your threshold of "successful" is, but if the P7 doesn't meet it, then there have only been about 10 successful semi-auto pistols in history.
Did JMB invent blowback? Or striker-firing? I give him credit for lots of things, but I didn't know he deserved credit for those.
Look, I think it's pretty hard to argue against the proposition that JMB was the greatest firearm designer in history. But it's simply overstating things to say that there is nothing he didn't invent first.
scythefwd
Member
I prefer the HP over the 1911. I just got my first 1911. Traded an HP for it, matter of fact. I'll end up replacing the HP.. this may be my only 1911, if I keep it. I'll give it some thousand rounds or so to grow on me.
ugaarguy
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I'm sorry but you're dead wrong. Hugo Borchardt designed the magazine in pistol grip as we know it now in his C-93 pistol, and that went into (for that period) mass production in 1893. Georg Roth and Karel Krnka beat JMB to the punch on striker fire by three years with their Roth-Steyr M1907 (Glocks use a modified version of this style of striker fire). JMB's greatest pistol contribution (amongst many great ones) was probably the tilt breech locking mechanism.
surfinUSA
Member
I really like the 1911 but do not see the HP as any improvement. In fact some of its features like its miniature safety lever I consider a liability.
The caliber is fine, I have a number of 9mms that are better guns for my purpose than the HP. But that is also true of the 1911, for a SD gun I prefer an older SIG P220 with a stamped slide.
The caliber is fine, I have a number of 9mms that are better guns for my purpose than the HP. But that is also true of the 1911, for a SD gun I prefer an older SIG P220 with a stamped slide.
With the right grips (Houge monogrips) they feel almost the same in my hand, which is odd because the BHP is so boxy on cross section at the magazine.
Same manual of arms. (With disconnecter removed)
Controls can be customized so they are the same size/contours for both pistols. And you can use the same holsters.
All of which helped make the BHP my favorite 9mm. One of these days io need to get a real BHP, as my current one is an FEG clone.
Same manual of arms. (With disconnecter removed)
Controls can be customized so they are the same size/contours for both pistols. And you can use the same holsters.
All of which helped make the BHP my favorite 9mm. One of these days io need to get a real BHP, as my current one is an FEG clone.
scythefwd
Member
Dr Rob,
Which "clone"? The P9R or the real clone? I started off with a P9R, and moved to an early post war HP. I traded that for a 1911, and I'm already looking for a used HP to replace the one I traded.
If it's the P9R - night and day difference in the way it feels in the hand vs. a real HP.
Which "clone"? The P9R or the real clone? I started off with a P9R, and moved to an early post war HP. I traded that for a 1911, and I'm already looking for a used HP to replace the one I traded.
If it's the P9R - night and day difference in the way it feels in the hand vs. a real HP.
Hammerhead6814
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1911's are nice, but there is nothing like the raw sex appeal of a Hi-Power.
JohnBT
Member
There's the P210.
I have at least one 1911, BHP & CZ-75B. And then there's the Swiss Army Pistal, aka the P210. It's my favorite now.
I have at least one 1911, BHP & CZ-75B. And then there's the Swiss Army Pistal, aka the P210. It's my favorite now.
dogtown tom
Member
Ummmm.............a safety lever design that was discontinued a quarter of a century ago?
It's funny, but every military in the free world coveted the Hi Power with that little liability.
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