Are these like-new, Nazi marked, WWII production, Mitchell Mausers for real?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jan 31, 2004
Messages
4,238
Location
Florida, CSA
Mitchell has been advertising Mauser 98 Carbines in new unissued condition for a few years now, but they were post WWII production made by the Communists in control of former Nazi factories. All the sudden, they are advertising what seem to be new unissued, Nazi marked, WWII vintage, German Mauser 98 Carbines, with all matching serial numbers and bright bores. They are only asking $500 for them. Previous to this, such rifles in such condition were going for over a grand. Is this for real? Seems hard to believe. They claim to have come across a large, though limited, supply of these in storage in some national armory somewhere. Are these on the up and up? If so, it would likely do real damage to the market in German, Nazi marked, WWII vintage, Mauser 98 Carbines. Anyone know anything? Thanks.
 
Last edited:
I saw that Ad and the first thing that didn't look correct was the bolt being in the white (not blued).
Their web page only has 98K's in the $2500.00 to $10,000.00 range. Yugo reworks or Czech?
What are the receiver markings if any? The Ad is just to vague, And I just don't trust Mitchell's

Tom
 
As I'm typing this, on my lap I have the Gun Buyers Annual Guide #43 2006.

On page 126 in the Rifles: Bolt Action section at the bottom of the page there is a "Mitchells Tanker-Mauser" with a 17.4 inch barrel. Calibers: .243, .270, .30-06, and .308.

Price: $495


Is this the rifle you're talking about?

Edit:
Here's a site you should check out. Look at the bottom mausers.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/mitchell.html
 
I don't know about Mitchell's offerings, but I do know that thousands and thousands of WWII era German k98k's have been coming into the USA recently, and prices have dropped radically in response. To my knowledge, they are coming mostly (or exclusively) from the former Soviet Union, which captured millions of them and has kept them sitting in warehouses for the last 60 years. I think Interarms has quite a few of them, and other importers have gotten hold of them, too.

Certain variants (those bearing the SS "death's head", for example) are still going to command higher prices, and there are enough variations to keep collectors busy for a long time.
 
Here's the ad I saw for it in the newest American Rifleman. Ignore the part of the article above it. Has nothing to do with the ad.
 

Attachments

  • German Mauser.jpg
    German Mauser.jpg
    309 KB · Views: 368
I think those $500 rifles are rifles made in Serbia under German 'direction.'

Could be the made in Germany rifles are higher priced.. "other models and grades available" is written in the ad.

From their site:

"A “NEW” Mauser, and it’s over 50 years old! A genuine Mauser K98, the Model M48 is the Strongest and Best of the original bolt-action Rifles. Made on German Tooling set up in formerly occupied Serbia."

"Some people may be getting the mistaken impression that these rifles were manufactured by Germans during the occupation. That is not the case. These rifles were manufactured with German technology in Serbia after the people had driven the Germans out of Serbia in late 1943."


IN ADDITION:

"We have found a small number of these rifles that are now in a Presentation Grade classification and appearance. These few rifles have been retrieved and RESTORED to original military-new condition by K-98 specialists in Germany using only the original parts."

A rebuild doesn't have the value of an original. But those 'historical' mausers are priced accordingly. one of them lists for $10k

Caveat Emptor... read the ad carefully.
 
You won't be making any money on these guns, at least not any time in the foreseeable future.

However, if you want an old Mauser, in new condition, without having to dig for it, and you don't mind paying a bit extra for the convenience, the ones I've seen are very nice.

So, the collector value of an Excellent battlefield pickup K98 from the old war trunk of great-grandpa who landed on D-Day is not there.

But Mitchell does offer an easy way to pick up and shoot a good-quality 1940s Mauser rifle -- for a price.

Me? I got an old 24/47 packed in cosmoline for a hundred bucks. I'll have to clean it a bit.:)
 
The M63 Tanker Mauser is in fact a modern-production Zastava Mauser carbine. And it's properly M48/63.

As for a "Mauser Carbine"...you mean like a G33/40? Those things are expensive. Definitely not $500.
 
Well, not all Zastava inventory is exactly "current production." It's my understanding that Zastava, also, is digging out a lot of grease-soaked old guns from old warehouses, and selling them.

This gun is interesting.:D

14501.jpg


Look closely at the above "sporting rifle."

The "sporting rifle" shown below comes complete with a bayonet and a grenade launcher. Perhaps it's intended for dangerous game hunting.:p

16201.jpg
 
I'm not sure what's so inconvenient about just buying one of the real rifles for yourself. Or why buying one in a pretty box from Mitchell's is more convenient.
 
Yeah, too bad M76s seem to be s***listed as far as importation goes. Apparently the ACTUAL imports were too easy to convert to FA. :uhoh:

Some guys really got screwed when the ATF put out a recall.

There ARE US-legal rifles floating around, though; Ohio Rapid Fire sells them, both as complete rifles and as kits.
 
Let's clear this up once and for all....

...because there is still obviously a LOT of confusion about surplus Mausers.

Yes, Mitchell has for years been hawking post-war Yugoslav M48 mauser rifles. They are not German, and were not made during or prior to WWII. They are called M48 because they are the model of 1948 adopted by the Yugoslav Army. They look a whole lot like German k98 rifles from WWII because they were built largely on tooling that was previously used by Germany to manufacture the k98.

Unfortunately, Mitchell has used somewhat, um, deceptive wording in its advertising. They tout the M48's as "WWII era" and built on "German machinery."

The M48 is a very good rifle. Unlike real German WWII k98's, M48's are generally available in excellent condition, because most of them never saw combat. Tens of thousands have been imported and sold in "unissued condition." They are still available cheap.

The Mitchell ad in the current American Rifleman is NOT describing Yugoslav M48 rifles. Rather, it is describing real, German, WWII k98 rifles.

It is true that as recently as 10 years ago, real German k98 WWII-era rifles were relatively scarce. Collectors bought all of them, and their collector value was high enough that they were not considered shooters. That's because the only ones in the USA were generally those brought back from WWII by US vets as war souvenirs. That's not a whole lot of them, in the grand scheme of things. My dad collected German military Mauser rifles when I was a kid. He had dozens of them in various versions. Many of them were worth well over a thousand dollars each, even back then (the 1970s).

Starting a year or two ago, however, the market for German military WWII mauser rifles changed radically. The reason is simple. Something like 8 million k98's were built by Germany between 1933 and 1945. That's a lot of rifles. No more than 10,000 were probably in the USA until recently, however, so they were scarce and expensive. So where did all those Wehrmacht mausers go? They went into the arsenals of the Soviet Union at the end of WWII. And that's where they stayed for almost 60 years.

You all know that Mosin-Nagant rifles have flooded into the USA from Russian and other former USSR countries over the last 5-10 years. You can still buy as many as you want, in many cases for $100 or less per rifle. They are generally in good shape, because they were "re-arsenaled" after WWII and put into storage.

The same thing happened to captured German mauser rifles. The Soviets re-arsenaled millions of them and stored them. With the end of the Cold War and the opening of those countries to the west, lots of those obsolete arms became available for export. In the last few years, a number of importers have managed to put together deals for captured German mauser rifles.

That is what Interarms, Mitchell and others are selling now -- real WWII German mauser rifles that were captured by the Soviets. Many of them have been rearsenaled by the Soviets, and will show evidence of it (cyrillic markings, Russian proof marks, etc.). Many are quite common variants (tens or even hundreds of thousands made, and who knows how many survived). Because there are so many of them, they are cheaper now than they have been at any time since the Wehrmacht first procured them 60+ years ago.

The importers aren't stupid, however. They are going over each one carefully. Those that are in particularly good shape, and those that bear rare markings sought after by collectors (such as the SS death's head), are being pulled out and priced separately. What you will get for $500 is a run-of-the-mill k98 that was captured, rearsenaled and stored by the Russkies. It may or may not have rearsenal markings. The retailers/wholesalers will generally be able to tell you, and you may have to pay a higher price for matching numbers, no rearsenal marks, etc. It will not have rare waffenamts or unit markings at that price -- expect to pay well into the thousands for those.

The Mitchell describes the rifles as "near new" condition, with "like new bluing." In most cases, I believe, that's because they were reblued in Russian arsensals at the end of WWII prior to being put into storage. Note that Mitchell claims matching numbers on "at least six" major parts. Again, that's as much as they can claim, because these are generally re-arsenaled rifles. I didn't see any claim that they were free from re-arsenal or Russian capture markings.
 
I am heavily involved in collectible cameras. Some of you all might have heard of Leica, a brand of highly collectible camera that's still in production on the extreme high end of its market. The Soviets, great copiers that they are (were), took captured Leicas, particularly the III series, that were formerly with the Wehrmacht and made part for part copies of the cameras, lenses and little accessories.

They made these for years, for all I know they still make them - Zorki, Fed, Zenit and a number of other brands. These were quite scarce and somewhat valuable until about 1990 when the market got flooded with Leica! copy only $300 with lens! Own one of the finest optical instruments ever made, finest German engineering blah blah blah. Long story short a lot of people bought these paperweights because of extremely deceptive advertising.

Since the these East-Bloc copies are so similar to the real Leica a number of these East-bloc cameras have had their markings ground off and relabeled Leica and sold on the open market. A few exceptionally clever people have ground them down and put Japanese markings on them since some of the extremely rare cameras from Canon and Nikon were copies of the Leica III. Then you get the "SS" and Luftwaffe, even an "Afrikacorps" Leica that someone took a can of tan spraypaint to and kicked around in a sandbox. The fact that there are genuine Wehrmact and Luftwaffe cameras out there only confuses things, especially if you don't have access to good documentation. Hint - if someone tries to sell you a camera or rifle with a serial number you know you already own something's up.

Mitchells Mausers are on the same level as the 300 dollar Leica guys. They might not be outright faking their product like some of the camera dealers but their advertising has always been just as deliberately misleading and deceptive.

What they're selling might well be real but remember the markings on their rifles are only an engraving tool away from a generic RC mauser. It's done routinely with cameras all the time.
 
RH,

I seriously doubt that any of the "WWII German" mausers offered by Mitchells are fakes, for the simple reason that it is well-documented that millions upon millions of them were captured by the Soviets at the end of the war, and there is no evidence that said Soviets ever had the means or desire to manufacture new ones. That's what distinguish them from the Leica situation you describe. Real Leicas were and are rare in absolute terms, because not many were made, and we know that the Soviets built lots of knock-offs (as you describe).

I haven't personally inspected any of the Interarms or Mitchell "WWII German" mausers currently on the market, and I don't plan to. I don't think the ones available for sale at reasonable prices right now (such as the $500 Mitchell examples) will ever have any more collector value than the tens of thousands of K31's, M91-30's, etc., that have flooded the market. I certainly wouldn't plunk down the thousands being asked for the collectible specimens without a very close inspection by an expert, but I'd be more inclined to trust an outfit like Mitchell or Interarms than I would some joe at a gun show.

My bottom line is this -- I think the Mitchell rifles currently being advertised are indeed "real" German WWII production. They may well have seen combat (almost certainly on the eastern front). They are not "original", though, as they have almost certainly been reworked and refinished by the Russkies. They have no collectible value, and the large numbers available mean you will probably never get your money back if you buy one for Mitchell's price of $500. If you want a German WWII infantry rifle, however, that you can take to the range and shoot without worrying about it, then it might not be a bad buy. Even then, I think Interarms and others has them cheaper than Mitchell does, and if you shop around a little they should start turning up at gun shows in the $250-350 range before long.

If, however, you are tempted to buy a rare SS-marked mauser rifle at a gun show a couple of months or years from now, you ought to first have it inspected by a real expert you know and trust. There is a reasonable likelihood someone will have bought a cheap, Russian-capture run-of-the-mill k98 like these and "faked" the rare markings to increase its value. That happens all the time with collectibles, whether they are firearms, cars, or anything else.
 
FKB:

I'm not questioning the authenticity of their generic run of the mill rifles, but the "SS DEATH'S HEAD RUNE MARKED" mausers make me very skeptical, regardless of who is selling them especially given how easy the markings that distinguish them are to reproduce. I'm not expecting to see faked Soviet copies of mausers but the supply is so plentiful and so cheap that the opportunities for deception are plentiful. Their deceptive advertising only makes me more so, or maybe I'm just cynical from all the years of faked Wehrmacht, SS, Kriegsmarine, NSDAP, Liebstandarte etc. etc. etc. cameras out there.

Good and reputable dealers have fallen into that trap, either deliberately distribtuing fake or questionable cameras or taking the "ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies" attitude. The money is too good for them to pass up I guess.
 
If they are like the other very expensive Mitchell's on their website, these have been cleaned up some so they will look better than what you would normally expect from AIM or others. Stocks probably cleaned with oven cleaner or something similar that is quick and cheap.

Notice the bolt in the ad is bright - RCs are usually black. They probably cleaned those as well.

I think these are just their standard 98K rifle that they normally price at $2,500 but they don't include the walnut presentation case (sold separately at $800!!). the book, sling, etc.

They probably ran out of chumps to buy them at $2,500 so they're now selling them at $500 for just the rifle.


http://www.mauser.org/rifles/hist_k98/index.htm
 
Too many people out there putting fake totenkopfs on K98 rifles to go out and spend enormous amounts of money on a rifle unseen. I woudn't $100 extra in person for such markings because I'm not an expert in spotting fakes. Mitchell's deceptive advertising has done little to boost my confidence in the validity of their rifles' markings.
 
'Tis a sorry state of affairs...

I've watched proprietors at gun shows sell not only the "NM", "P", ordnance emblem, and cartouche die stamps, but also several Springfields and Garands marked accordingly with those same tools. Hence, a mutt of a Garand with "NM" markings in the right places gathers a 4-figure price tag all of a sudden. Same goes for a 1903 Springfield that is lucky enough to have a star gauge mark conspicuously stamped on the muzzle.

Totenkopf and rune markings on a K98 just make me more suspicious these days. Gibbs ("Fibbs") was really good at calling their creations "historically significant". I'm rather glad they closed shop. Caveat Emptor. :uhoh:
 
These are russian capture K98 guns that have been tru a red army plant and reworked with a cheep dip blue over the original german park job. A while back they where trying to sell capture rework 350 buck P-38s for 1000 bucks with russian made grips and mixed parts.
 
About the ad in American Rifleman, to me, the ad doesn't say you can get one of their old original brand new, like new, whatever K98s with German army proof marks and matching numbers in perfect condition for $499.
To me the ad at best implies they have them available. On the lower-far right of the ad it says "Get this collector grade Mauser Only $499" which implies that the example shown with accesories is an example of their 'Collector Grade' K98 for which they get $499.
The primary purpose of this ad is to get you to 'look' , to generate traffic and hopefuly get you to contact them or at least check out their web site and not offer specific information on products and pricing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top