Are we sure Islam is really not part of the Terrorist problem

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Vernal45

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London Bombers Believed to Be Homegrown

Wednesday, July 13, 2005

LONDON — At least three of the four suspected homicide bombers who carried out the deadly attacks on London's transit system last week were born in England, and all four men came from Leeds in the English Midlands, according to British media.

British media also reported Wednesday that authorities were hunting a fifth man as a suspect in connection with the blasts last Thursday, which claimed at least 52 lives on three subway trains and on a bus in central London.

Scotland Yard was unable to confirm the report.

According to British media reports, three of the four are described as British nationals of Pakistani origin, all of whom lived in and around Leeds (search), which is heavily populated with lower- and lower-middle-class blue-collar workers.

News reports have identified three of the four as Shahzad Tanweer, a 22-year-old cricket-loving sports science graduate; Hasib Hussain, 19; and Mohammed Sidique Khan, the 30-year-old father of an 8-month-old baby. Press Association, citing police sources, said police had identified the fourth suspect, but no name was reported.

Click here to read in-depth profiles of three of the men.

Police have not publicly confirmed any of the identities. Investigators will now have to determine whether the men acted alone — or had help in planning the bombings.

Tanweer's uncle, Bashir Ahmed, said his nephew had gone to Pakistan earlier this year to study religion, and that the family believed he was attending "some religious function" on the day of the bombings.

"It was total shock, I mean, it's unbelievable," Ahmed told reporters.

"Our lives have been shattered. It's impossible to describe it. We have had a very pleasant time here. I don't think we can continue here."

Many Pakistanis immigrated to the area several decades ago to work in textile mills, many of which have since shut down. The area is rife with ethnic tension and was the site of notorious race riots in 2001.

In London, Prime Minister Tony Blair (search) met with British Muslim lawmakers and pledged to open dialogue to tackle a "perverted and poisonous misinterpretation" of Islam. He also said his government would begin consultations on new anti-terrorism legislation.

Addressing the House of Commons, Blair said the government also would look urgently at how to strengthen the process for excluding from the United Kingdom those who incite hatred and make it easier to deport such people.

Christina Corbett, a London intelligence analyst, told FOX News that if the attacks were the work of Al Qaeda (search), the terror network would most likely have sent an expert to train the cell and extracted this person before the attack was carried out.

"It's highly likely that these four men were not working alone," Corbett said. "One of these men reportedly was 19, which is way too young to be training in a [terrorist] camp in Afghanistan." (search)

Corbett said the developments in the case could help uncover other terror cells operating in the United Kingdom.

"I don't think that further attacks have been ruled out; they were certainly expected after the [bombings in London]," Corbett said. "But as the criminal investigation proceeds, it will certainly become more difficult for the terrorists to carry out their activities."

Cops Search for Explosives, Evidence

Police raided six homes in Leeds Tuesday searching for explosives and computer files. They arrested a man, identified by the British news agency Press Association as a relative of one of the suspected bombers.

Acting on six warrants, British soldiers blasted their way into an unoccupied Leeds row house. Streets were cordoned off and about 500 people were evacuated. Hours earlier, police searched five homes elsewhere in the city. Police still weren't letting the evacuees return to their homes early Wednesday.

Authorities removed a silver Honda Accord from outside of Khan's home yesterday. The property remained clad in scaffolding and white plastic sheeting today. Documents belonging to Khan were found in the debris of the Edgware Road blast.

Neighbors of Tanweer in Leeds' garbage-strewn rows of Victorian-era red brick houses were apprehensive and hostile, walking fast past reporters gathered at the cordons. One warehouse worker, who would only give his first name, Saj, said Tanweer was a "good lad" and an athlete.

"He was quiet," he said. "He was religious. He went to every mosque here. There are loads of mosques here."

Mohammed Iqbal, a town councilor who represents the City-on-Hunslet section of Leeds, told AP that all of the homes raided belong to "British citizens of Pakistani origin."

Three of the homes were in the neighborhood he represents, Iqbal said in a phone call with AP's office in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital. He said he had just met with police about the investigation.

"This is not good for Muslims," Iqbal said. "We have businesses here. There will be a backlash."

Did Bomber Blunder?

One of the suspects had been reported missing by his family at 10 p.m. Thursday, and some of his property was found on the double-decker bus in which 13 died, said Peter Clarke, head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch.

Some witness accounts suggested the bus bomber may have blundered, blowing up the wrong target and accidentally killing himself. A witness who got off the crowded bus just before it exploded told AP he saw an agitated man in his 20s fiddling anxiously with something in his bag.

"This young guy kept diving into this bag or whatever he had in front of his feet, and it was like he was taking a couple of grapes off a bunch of grapes, both hands were in the bag," said Richard Jones, 61, of Bracknell, west of London. "He must have done that at least every minute if not every 30 seconds."

One theory suggested the attacker may have intended to leave his bomb on the subway but was unable to board because his coconspirators had already shut the system down.

Investigators also found personal documents bearing the names of two of the other men near seats on the Aldgate and Edgware lines. Police did not identify the men.

Clarke said police had strong evidence that the man believed to have carried a bomb onto the subway train that exploded between the Aldgate and Liverpool Street stations died in the blast, and they were awaiting confirmation from the coroner.

"We have now been able to establish that he was joined on his journey to London by three other men," he said.

Leeds, about 185 miles north of London, has a population of about 715,000. About 15 percent of the residents are Muslim, and many come from a tight-knit Pakistani community, mostly from Mirpur, south of Islamabad in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. Other pockets of the community are mostly Arab.

Khalid Muneer, 28, a spokesman for the Hyde Park Mosque in Leeds, said the community was surprised by the raids and police claims that the bombers may have come from there.

"That connection would surprise us all, even shock the whole community. We still think it's too early to say," he told AP, adding that Muslims in the area were not opposed to Britain.

"I've seen no calls in this area for jihad against British or American forces. You will not get that sentiment expressed around this mosque."

Profiles of the Suspects

Closed-circuit TV video showed all four men arriving at King's Cross by 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, about 20 minutes before the blasts began, said Clarke.

U.S. intelligence agencies are checking the names of the London bombers against their databases looking for any U.S. connection, President Bush told chief executives at a private White House meeting Tuesday.

The three suspects appear to have come from a moderately affluent sect of British society. They reportedly rode in a rental car to London, toting military style backpacks. The fourth bomber remains unidentified, but is believed to be from the Luton area northwest of London.

Several officials, including Foreign Minister Jack Straw, have said the attacks bore the "hallmark" of Al Qaeda, and one of the questions investigators presumably are trying to answer is whether the four had outside help in planning the attacks.

Jeremy Shapiro, director of research at the center on the United States and Europe at the Brookings Institution, said Europeans had been involved in suicide attacks in the Middle East, but he knew of no previous such bombings in Western Europe.

Britain has produced a handful of would-be bombers over the last five years but, until last Thursday, only one successfully completed a mission. That bomber was Asif Hanif, 21, from London, who walked into Mike's Bar, a blues joint on the seafront at Tel Aviv, in 2003 and blew himself up, killing two musicians and a waitress and injuring more than 40 others.

His British accomplice, Omar Khan Sharif, 27, was a father of two from Derby. He went into the bar but failed to detonate his bomb and, after a scuffle, escaped. His decomposed body was found a week later floating in the sea near the bar.

For more, go to these FOX News partners: Sky News | The Times of London | The Sun

Sky News and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162358,00.html

Are we sure Islam is really not part of the Terrorist problem? I think it is a big part of the Terrorist problem. And before any of you get your panties in a wad, I do not think all muslims are terrorists, nor do I advocate a "kill them all" solution. However, I do believe that Islam plays a greater roll in fueling terrorism than we would like to admit, you know, we have to be PC about this.
 
Can you cite where in the Koran it advocates jihad? All I know about Islam has come from the news and from what I've heard there's nothing there substantiating your claim.
 
No huh??????

So tell me when was the last time Catholics, Jews, Hari Krishnas, Protestants, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddists, or even Scientologists, went around blowing themselves and others up intentionally targeting women, children, and unarmed non combatants to get into heaven? Which other religion believes that by Killing yourself and innocent others you will get into heaven and be serviced by 72 virgins???????

Which other religion has prominent clergy that publically praises suicide bombers, and pays their families money???????

WELL????

http://www.answeringislam.net/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html


Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101

" Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. "
 
Is Islam part of the problem?
No, it's the entire problem.

It might be politically incorrect, it might be forbidden to say, it might not want to be heard, but here it is:

Islam is a religion that demands world domination, and approves of any and all violence that leads to that goal.

That's not "bashing Islam", it's the simple fact, that anyone reading the koran can see plainy right there in black and white. Lieing, stealing, cheating, murder of women and children, it's all good in the cause of jihad, the march towards the final victory of Islam over the entire world.
 
Hmmmm...

Well - let's see.

In the last 30 years:

How many planes have been hijacked by non-muslims?
How many suicide bombers have been non-muslims?
How many nightclubs have been blown up by non-muslims?
How many cruise ships have been hijacked by non-muslims?
How many world trade centers have been blown up by non-muslims?
How many trains have been blow up by non-muslims?
How many schools have been blow up by non-muslims?
How many crowded theatres have been attacked by non-muslims.
How many Olympian Athletes have been killed by non-muslims?
How many intafadas have been called and implemented by non-muslims?
Why is it that something like 90% of the active wars today involve muslims?

Are we beginning to see a pattern here? Anyone... Anyone... Buehler? :cuss:

But then I suppose there is a possibility that it's all a conspiracy by the rest of the world just to make muslims look bad. :banghead:

Of course there's also a possibility the sun might blink out some time tomorrow too. :what:

That doesn't mean it will happen though.

To answer the question:

Islam isn't a part of the problem - It is the PROBLEM!
 
Sigh.

Islam is not the problem. Radical fanatics are the problem.

Saying Islam is the problem, is like saying gun owners are respopnsble for all the gun deaths in America.

And I am not positive on this, but did Islam play any role in Northern Ireland? I'm thinking that it was all Christians.
 
Islam is not the problem.
I can tell you haven't read the koran.

I highly recommend either buying or checking one out of the library, and read it. Because after that, you'll never say "Islam is not the problem" again.
 
That's not "bashing Islam", it's the simple fact, that anyone reading the koran can see plainy right there in black and white. Lieing, stealing, cheating, murder of women and children, it's all good in the cause of jihad, the march towards the final victory of Islam over the entire world.
If that's what you see when you read the Qur'an, then it's not really worth discussing, is it?

:(
 
If that's what you see when you read the Qur'an, then it's not really worth discussing, is it?
If you didn't see it right there, in black and white, like I did, then you're correct, it isn't worth discussing.

I recommend everyone with the slightest interest in the subject to read the koran. Note that the Islamic apologists never say to read the book.

There is a reason for that.
 
The bottom line is that there are plenty of widely held Christian beliefs that have little to no basis on the Bible, so why should Islam be any different? People often believe what they are told without going to the source, and there are plenty of evil "leaders" out there who'll use that gullibility towards their own ends.

Rick
 
Anyone remember the crusades?

How about Klan lynchings and cross burnings? Most Klan members could be found in church on Sunday.

Fanatic followers of Isam are not the only people to take a religon and make it into a personal quest to rid the world of the people they hate.

Its the same way lawyers, judges and politicians have taken the constitution and interpret it for their own beliefs.

It doesn't help that the so called civilized nations of this world keep sticking their nose into other countries business playing covert games and supporting civil wars and goverment over throws.
 
I recommend everyone with the slightest interest in the subject to read the koran. Note that the Islamic apologists never say to read the book.
I do too. And you'd call my an "islamic apologist," so go figure...

I prefer the translation by Mohommad Asad, but Abdullah Yusef Ali's isn't bad (and it's cheap). A "Penguin Classics" version doesn't cut it.

Here's the key: Read the ????ing footnotes! The Qur'an was dished out in pieces, and the relevations contained within it were often in response to trauma the young community had just experienced.

It's one thing to read what it says to do to "the infidels," then remember that Fox News said we're all infidels, and another entirely to understand that this bit of scripture was revealed the morning after a couple of folks pretended to be Muslims so they could infiltrate the camp and slit Mohommad's throat, and now the community needed to know how to deal with them.

Oh yeah -- "jihad" likely doesn't mean what you think it means.

But what do I know?
 
Anyone remember the crusades?

The Crusades, with no excusing the excesses that occurred by some of them who participated, were a direct response to the Islamic invasion and forceable conversion of those lands (spreading of Islam by the sword has a long and verifiable history, still occurring even today).

Say what one will about the Crusades, but without them, all or most of Europe may very well be Islamic today.

That said, having been to both Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (courtesy of the USMC), I find much to admire about and facinate on in Arabic culture, and know for a fact that there's honorable people that live in that same culture. I was proud to have played some small part in helping them secure themselves, and return thier country to them from the maggots who invaded and stole it.

I can not however trust them specifically because of their faith, as the Koran specifically allows them to deal dishonestly with "infidels" if it advances the cause of Islam, to say nothing of eliminating those same people with the full blessing of Allah that many follow to the nth degree, even if only in belief rather than physical exertion.

Chris
 
This obviously is a very hot topic on the radio and boards right now.

I think we need to look at it in one way. What the Qur'an says and what Islam and muslims actually do can be very different things. As someone else mentioned, one only needs to look at Christianity for examples of this too.

Now the issue I think a lot of people are having a problem with is the perception that muslims are not really more strongly voicing a strong stand against the violence. We know some are, but it is not permeating the social conscious - and not all of it is just bias. Some muslim leaders have expressed a double stand on this depending on their audience; coming out strongly against violence on one hand, and then supporting it say in Israel and other instances to others.

Some muslim leaders on the news circuits also have been apologists for the violence too. As well also I have heard this on many talk shows. Essentially often these muslims will say the violence is terrible, but instead of stopping there or talking on how they in their communities act to stop the hate speech, they instead take up the cause of giving up all the reasons of why people doing the violence would do this. They come off sounding like they are giving excuses for it.

Of course, there is no one muslim voice - like there is no one Christian voice. Right now the game is in perceptions, and it's not rounding very well right now.

So I can see how this issue is really tumbling around. However anyone who says that Islam is essentially violent and cannot be trusted is not seeing the whole picture.
 
My turn to say the unpopular things, I guess:

What the terrorists have done and are doing is horrible. I'm not defending them. I think we should continue to seek them out and fight them. But, that said...

How many Muslims were involved in the extermination of Jews and Gypsies and Communists in WWII in Germany? I'm pretty sure that most of those responsible for the killings were arguably Christians. Millions more were killed by those "Christians" than have been killed by Muslims.

You can claim that anybody who would do things like that weren't really Christians, and perhaps you'd be right. But I've heard sincere Muslim say the same thing about the terrorists blowing up subway trains in Great Britain or flying planes into buildings in NYC or driving car bombs into crowds of school-age children in Baghdad.

How many Muslims were involved in the Soviet purges during Stalin's reign? Darned few, as religions were outlawed there. Folks who were "officially" atheist did it -- and they killed 2-3 times more folks than did the German "Christians" and the Islamic nutcases, combined. (Maybe as many as 25 million died under Stalin's rule.) Most of the atheists I know really want to attack IDEAS, not people.

How many Muslims were involved in the Cambodia purges dramatized in the movie "The Killing Fields?" More than a million people were killed there, and not a lot of Muslims around to blame.

How many Muslims have assasinated abortion clinic workers or bombed innocent bystanders (including people in Atlanta during the last Olympics?)

One nutcase who shot an abortion clinic doctor had once been a Christian minister and was still a practicing Christian when arrested. Does that mean all Christian Ministers (or ex-Ministers) are homicidal nut cases or assasins?

How about all of the IRA bombings and murders in Northern Ireland? Any Muslims there? What if most of the IRA members who blew up parts of London were raised as Roman Catholics? Does that mean that Catholics are all terrorists?

How about the anthrax sent in the mails a couple of years ago. Looks as though a disenchanted Army employee (civilian, maybe) might have been behind that? Not a Muslim.

The vast majority of the folks who are doing those awful terrorist things also have brown eyes.... should we also assume that everyone with brown eyes is a nut case ready to blow themselves to guarantee their place in Heaven?

What does all of this tell us about Christianity and Islam and Atheists? Not much, actually.

But some folks seem to find it easier to cope with their fears and threats if they can stick all of the concerns into a little box and wrap it up neatly: let's go after the Muslims, and we'll solve the problem. Simple solution, right?

This isn't a holy war. Don't try to make it one. Its hateful, desperate people doing desparate things for reasons that are only partially understood. If you try to turn it into a HOLY WAR, many, many more are going to die, and it won't just be in London or NYC or the Middle East. It'll be in Kansas and Montana, and Florida. Turn it into a Holy War, and we'll have to do what the guys in 'Nam used to talk about doing: kill'em all and let God sort'em out.

We have to live with ourselves later, if we survive. A Holy War would not bode well for America or Christianity.

There are a lot of Muslims in the U.S. who are invested in the American way of life and American values. They'll help, too, if we give them a chance -- and don't immediately start attacking them and forcing them to strike back in self defense...

One of the things I used to hear a lot was "what would Jesus Do." Nobody seems to be asking that question, nowadays. Why is that?
 
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