Are Ya Feelin' All Warm And Cuddly Yet?

[CRITGIT]

This Adm is incompetent at best!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/19/tsa.watch.list/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

CRITGIT

 

[Aaryq]

You know those retired Brigadier Generals turned airline pilots authorized to carry on airplanes to defend them from hijackers...them types can't be trusted.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Off topic.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

OK, I got a PM that made sense.

maybe the OP didn't intend it, but the first thing I thought of when I read that was how certain groups are pushing for the 'no fly list' to be also used as the 'no guns for you list'

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...poses_che.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/08/news/guns.php

http://bradycontrolinc.blogspot.com/...terrorist.html

to me, that makes his linked article terribly relevant to RKBA

Thread re-opened. Please keep it gun-related.

 

[akodo]

I am definately concerned about how 'reasonable' it will seem to the uneducated to deny those 'terrorists' on the watchlist from being able to get guns because of course no-one points out all the errors, or that it is wrong to restrict rights of a person without some sort of trial and conviction, suspicion should not be enough.

Brady Bunch knows this. I suspect 'stage 1' is to deny anyone on the 'no fly list' from having guns, 'stage 2' is to deem all people who own firearms a hazard because maybe they will sneak a firearm on a plane = defacto ban

 

[AZAndy]

Two out of the three links in Larry Ashcraft's were dead, so it's hard to understand what the point of them was-- can anyone who read them when they were still live summarize?

 

[kwelz]

AZAndy, it boils down to this.
Lots of people are on the No fly list that should not be. It has also been proven that they add people to the list if they piss off the TSA. Now there are people talking about using the No Fly list as a No Gun list as well.

 

[AZAndy]

Ah, I see-- thanks, Azizza. I was aware of the inaccuracies of the list and all that, but hadn't heard of the "no fly = no gun" thing. Dang. What a sorry state we're in.

(I mean "state" as in "situation," not "government," mind you-- no politics intended!)

 

[akodo]

the links did not survive the cut and paste apparently

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/05/nra_opposes_che.html

http://bradycontrolinc.blogspot.com/2007/05/paul-helmke-on-gun-purchase-terrorist.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/08/news/guns.php

 

[CRITGIT]

It's just a short strole down the hall from a no fly list to a no gun list. My point is today's fear mongering on the part of big brother can't end well for us as gunners if your name can instantly appear on a "no anything" list without cause or your knowledge.
One adm gets away with it and it will only snowball from adm to adm.
How's that go again... he who swaps liberty for security has neither.
Gov regardless of party will find a way to get their way at the expense of our rights!...guns and otherwise! None of it's good!

CRITGIT

 

[akodo]

And here we are again

Anyways I dug up this old thread because critgit's original article will come in handy to us. If the watch-list is so flawed as to have a baby and an airline pilot on it, how can it be good to use it to judge who should own guns or not?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/19/tsa.watch.list/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Ill cut and past the good bits

SAN FRANCISCO, California (CNN) -- James Robinson is a retired Air National Guard brigadier general and a commercial pilot for a major airline who flies passenger planes around the country.

He has even been certified by the Transportation Security Administration to carry a weapon into the cockpit as part of the government's defense program should a terrorist try to commandeer a plane.

But there's one problem: James Robinson, the pilot, has difficulty even getting to his plane because his name is on the government's terrorist "watch list."

That means he can't use an airport kiosk to check in; he can't do it online; he can't do it curbside. Instead, like thousands of Americans whose names match a name or alias used by a suspected terrorist on the list, he must go to the ticket counter and have an agent verify that he is James Robinson, the pilot, and not James Robinson, the terrorist.

Besides the airline pilot, there's the James Robinson who served as U.S. attorney in Detroit, Michigan, and as an assistant attorney general in the Clinton administration; and James Robinson of California, who loves tennis, swimming and flying to the East Coast to see his grandmother.

He's 8.

The third-grader has been on the watch list since he was 5 years old. Asked whether he is a terrorist, he said, "I don't know."

Though he doesn't even know what a terrorist is, he is embarrassed that trips to the airport cause a ruckus, said his mother, Denise Robinson.

Denise Robinson said that no one in the government even told her her son is on the watch list but that it wasn't hard to figure out. Checking in at curbside three years ago, the family was told they couldn't get boarding passes and were hustled to the ticket counter.

She said the ticket agent made a number of phone calls and kept asking which among her husband and two sons was James.

"And all of a sudden he says, 'How old is he?' " Robinson recounted. She said she responded numerous times, "He's 5."

The FBI won't confirm any name on the list. And the TSA says Kennedy and Lewis aren't on the list, even though they have been stopped.

But although the list is clearly bloated with misidentifications by every official's account, CNN has learned that it may also be ineffective. Numerous people, including all three Robinsons, have figured out that there are ways not to get flagged by the watch list.

Denise Robinson says she tells the skycaps her son is on the list, tips heavily and is given boarding passes. And booking her son as "J. Pierce Robinson" also has let the family bypass the watch list hassle.

Capt. James Robinson said he has learned that "Jim Robinson" and "J.K. Robinson" are not on the list.

And Griffin has tested its effectiveness. When he runs his first and middle name together when making a reservation online, he has no problem checking in at the airport.

The TSA has said the problem lies with the airlines and threatened to fine airlines that tell passengers they are on the watch list. That didn't sit well with the airlines, who through the Air Transport Association said they have been waiting for four years for the TSA to come up with a fix

Ted Kennedy is on the No Fly List as well...er was. But then again, his car killed more people than my guns, so maybe there is some legitimacy to his being on there...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17073-2004Aug19.html

U.S. Sen. Edward M. "Ted" Kennedy said yesterday that he was stopped and questioned at airports on the East Coast five times in March because his name appeared on the government's secret "no-fly" list.

Federal air security officials said the initial error that led to scrutiny of the Massachusetts Democrat should not have happened even though they recognize that the no-fly list is imperfect. But privately they acknowledged being embarrassed that it took the senator and his staff more than three weeks to get his name removed

.

Face it, if one of the most powerful men in the government can accidentally get on the list, ANYONE can. If one of the 10-20 most powerful men in the government takes 3 WEEKS to get off the list, how long do you think it will take an Average Joe who is wrongly on some secret list to get off of it? 300 weeks?

 

[ilikepancakes]

I don't know if anyone here watches the show "Modern Family" much, but they just recently had an episode featuring (among other things) the ridiculousness of this list. At least not ALL the media is for it this time.

Anyway... even if it doesn't turn into an anti-gun list it's still disturbing it made it this far.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Which brings us to NICS check and the fact that there is virtually no way to get your name out of the system once you are in it, and add to it that the watch list is secret, so you don't know why you got denied, OH and the NO FLY is a VERY small number of the watch list people.


Remember that nice Dept of Homeland security report, Republican gun loving veteran, yep your a terrorist.

 

[Gouranga]

I fail to see how this list is still in existence. Applying it to remove a citizens right to bear arms without due process though will be its death. I do not see how even the SCOTUS we have now could justify removing a persons right (in effect convicting them of a crime without trial, guilty until proven innocent) without a trial. We are not talking about inconveniencing them, if it becomes a no gun list you are talking about removing their right to bear arms without a trial.

 

[Nico Testosteros]

Remember that nice Dept of Homeland security report, Republican gun loving veteran, yep your a terrorist.

That report, commissioned by the Bush administration, didn't say that at all.
Just that radical groups were trying to recruit those with military experience.

 

[Shadow 7D]

sorry, i only read the police memo, and that was the gist, as I don't know many Democrats that describe themselves as "right"

 

[Voimakas]

The No-Fly List should be abolished.

 

[merlinfire]

The list is definitely unconstitutional. But be careful of blaming one party or another, you may remember, we've been doing under-the-table things like this ever since the knee-jerk days following 9/11

 

[Carl N. Brown]

We have a guy at our club who had a mistaken identity arrest (traffic stop showed same name as a wanted fugitive). To buy a gun, he has to appeal the reject of the background check with a copy of the court papers showing he was cleared (the arrest is on the background check record, the fact it was dropped due to mistaken identity is buried in the court record, maybe only in his zeroxes of the decision).

These lists need to be vetted to remove false positives if they are to be useful at all.

Added note: the New York and Chicago schools of gun control (going back to Carl Bakal's "NO Right to Bear Arms") don't care about false positives as long as they keep people from buying guns. Think about the 1970 Norval Morris and Gordon Hawkins book that advocated suspending the 4th Amendment to implement a ban on all guns. Antigunners hate guns and gunowners so much they would shred the Constitution and Bill of Rights if that was what it took.

 

[shockwave]

It seems that all the wild over-reactions to 9/11 left us saddled with things that don't make us any more secure, but that do seriously threaten our liberty and civil rights. We ought to seriously consider abolishing the Patriot Act, the "no-fly" nonsense, the TSA, and the Dept of Homeland Security, all of which appear to be "security theater."

In each case where we've (both here and abroad) thwarted and captured terrorists, we've done so with solid, traditional police work. Indeed, the primary use of Patriot Act provisions today is in prosecuting drug crimes and organized criminal activity - it's being used on the US population in ways that have nothing to do with terrorism.