Are you planning on buying or have you bought an IWI Tavor?

[Ragsdale0509]

Shoot a Tavor before you complain about the weight. A 10 pound Tavor feels lighter and easier to shoulder for long periods of time than a 8 pound AR-15. The weight bias of the Tavor is towards the rear whereas the weight bias of the AR is towards the front. ARs are very frequently nose heavy. The balance of a rifle is more important than the overall weight.

 

[briansmithwins]

Shoot a Tavor before you complain about the weight. A 10 pound Tavor feels lighter and easier to shoulder for long periods of time than a 8 pound AR-15. The weight bias of the Tavor is towards the rear whereas the weight bias of the AR is towards the front. ARs are very frequently nose heavy. The balance of a rifle is more important than the overall weight.

Agree totally. You can look at specs on the interwebz all day long but the proof is in how it feels. The other thing is people have gotten used to how nose heavy most ARs are, so a rifle that's better balanced feels 'wrong'.

It's like preferring canned green beans to fresh because that's what you grew up with.

BSW

 

[Bobson]

Just watched a video on the Tavor. I don't know this guy, never seen any of his videos, but it was decent.

Thanks a lot. As if I needed another rifle to clutter my decision between an AK and an AR. On the plus side, I can't afford any of em yet.

One thing though. The Tavor has a 13 pound trigger pull out of the box? Easily fixed down to 9 pounds? What the heck. Who finds that acceptable?

ETA: Just read post #31, regarding Geissele working on a trigger. Still though... is there something about the Tavor or the design that requires such a heavy trigger? I don't live in NYC, and see no reason to pretend I do.

 

[briansmithwins]

One thing though. The Tavor has a 13 pound trigger pull out of the box? Easily fixed down to 9 pounds? What the heck. Who finds that acceptable?

The Israeli Army?

Military pattern rifles commonly have very heavy triggers by American standards. Most military rifle were designed with conscript soldiers in mind.

For me, how a trigger feels is probably more important than weight. For example, the AUG trigger is heavy, but mine doesn't have creep and breaks cleanly. I'd rather have a heavy trigger than one that's gritty. Of course, when you're trying to quantify things, trigger weight is a easy number to measure. Trigger feel isn't

BSW

 

[Bobson]

Military pattern rifles commonly have very heavy triggers by American standards. Most military rifle were designed with conscript soldiers in mind.

For me, how a trigger feels is probably more important than weight. For example, the AUG trigger is heavy, but mine doesn't have creep and breaks cleanly. I'd rather have a heavy trigger than one that's gritty. Of course, when you're trying to quantify things, trigger weight is a easy number to measure. Trigger feel isn't

I also prefer a nice, smooth trigger over a light trigger when I have to choose one or the other. The thing is, with most modern firearms being fully capable of having both, I don't see why a firearm would be designed with such a heavy trigger - conscript soldiers or not. The Israeli Army isn't exactly known for having a bunch of incompetents in uniform, as I'm sure you know.

 

[briansmithwins]

Name 3 modern*, military pattern firearms that have been adopted outside the country of origin.

Most of the designs we can get date to the cold war or just after and were designed for conscript troops with minimal training.

BSW

*Post break up of the Soviet Union.

 

[dvdcrr]

Definitive bulpup video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Fciegxl94
In case you need your day lightened.

 

[Markm87]

There's a Seal Team guy who posts on one of the other forums. Reading his experiences and what's in use in any serious Tac team, and his break down of why the Bull Pup sucks for high speed stuff, and you'll pass on this nonsense. Basically the Ergos are horrendous... no surprise.

Now if you want one just for the love of Puppery and collection... by all means.

 

[Jackal]

The fact remains, the Tavor is simply too overpriced to compete with the AR market. For $2000, you can get a good AR AND a top quality AK. Even if the Tavor is more reliable than the AR15 (which there has been zero data released to backup that claim), having an extra AK sitting next to the AR seems to trump that problem. So, your AR broke after 20,000 rounds? Grab the AK and go another 40k. But its all just numbers. Who shoots their AR that much, maybe 5% or less of AR owners. Who has 20k rounds sitting around, maybe 2% of AR owners? 20,000rds is about $8000 in ammo.

When the Tavor comes down from MSRP, to maybe around $1400, it may be a viable purchase. Until then, it doesnt sling lead any better than a quality AR, it just does so being 6" shorter (collapsed AR 32", Tavor 26"). I for one have never been so close to the target I'm shooting at to require a 6" shorter rifle. If space is that tight, I should have a handgun in my hand, not a rifle.

 

[jp0319]

Too expensive and it doesnt offer anything ground breaking. Plus I dont like the open trigger.

JP

 

[itsa pain]

The fact remains, the Tavor is simply too overpriced to compete with the AR market. For $2000, you can get a good AR AND a top quality AK. Even if the Tavor is more reliable than the AR15 (which there has been zero data released to backup that claim), having an extra AK sitting next to the AR seems to trump that problem. So, your AR broke after 20,000 rounds? Grab the AK and go another 40k. But its all just numbers. Who shoots their AR that much, maybe 5% or less of AR owners. Who has 20k rounds sitting around, maybe 2% of AR owners? 20,000rds is about $8000 in ammo.

When the Tavor comes down from MSRP, to maybe around $1400, it may be a viable purchase. Until then, it doesnt sling lead any better than a quality AR, it just does so being 6" shorter (collapsed AR 32", Tavor 26"). I for one have never been so close to the target I'm shooting at to require a 6" shorter rifle. If space is that tight, I should have a handgun in my hand, not a rifle.

not only that with all the billions we send there every year ripping us with an almost useless rifle is horrendous. when I say useless I mean to me trigger way to complicated and it does not do anything better then what is available for the money. also the only bull pup to me is the steyr aug which still looks futuristic today with its over 30 year old design

 

[JustinJ]

There's a Seal Team guy who posts on one of the other forums. Reading his experiences and what's in use in any serious Tac team, and his break down of why the Bull Pup sucks for high speed stuff, and you'll pass on this nonsense. Basically the Ergos are horrendous... no surprise.

You seriously think the SEAL criteria for weapons translates to the needs of anybody on this thread? And i'm sure none of the guys in the Israeli military know anything about weapons of war either.

 

[Jackal]

And i'm sure none of the guys in the Israeli military know anything about weapons of war either.

For a country the size of New Jersey, they have to have the newest toys to remain scary enough to prevent any other country in the region from simply swamping them. Of course, being U.S. backed/funded doesnt hurt either.:banghead: I'll buy a Tavor when replacement parts are available and the price is down to $1200-$1400.

 

[mr.trooper]

The Tavor looks neat and all... but if I were going to blow $2K on an AR as a toy (and its a toy ... there are too many more practical options for an SD or working rifle):

I think I would have to get something else - There is the Beretta ARX, The Benelli MR1, and the FS2000 for new rifles, and some real sweet older rifles like the FNC and the Valmet series for those willing to buy used.

 

[Bobson]

For a country the size of New Jersey, they have to have the newest toys to remain scary enough to prevent any other country in the region from simply swamping them.

Excellent point. I'm sure the reason Israel has survived the last several thousand years of nearly constant conflict is because they've always had the newest toys to scare their enemies

 

[Bobson]

...if I were going to blow $2K on an AR as a toy (and its a toy ... there are too many more practical options for an SD or working rifle):

Would you mind elaborating on this with a couple of examples of more practical rifles for SD, compared to an AR15?

 

[silicosys4]

"made in israel" does not translate to "unquestionably awesome" to me.

Don't have a Tavor, Don't see myself getting one in the future.

 

[YZ]

I am surprised to see so many strong opinions from fellows who have never fired or even handled a Tavor. It's fine to mind your wallet, no need to invent a theory.

 

[newfalguy101]

I would like to, but, alas the price will likely keep it a "would like to own" gun

 

[Jackal]

I'm sure the reason Israel has survived the last several thousand years of nearly constant conflict

....Um, Israel as a cogent state is only 65 years old... My point stands.

 

[Bobson]

....Um, Israel as a cogent state is only 65 years old... My point stands.

Despite defeating me through a semantic technicality (I applaud you for using it), your point is as weak now as it was four hours ago, and you know it. Regardless, it's off topic either way. We can both pretend you're right, and move on.

"Cool" new weaponry - regardless of effectiveness - is clearly responsible for the safety of the Israeli people. Brilliant deduction.

 

[itsa pain]

"made in israel" does not translate to "unquestionably awesome" to me.

Don't have a Tavor, Don't see myself getting one in the future.

made in Israel means we paid to set up the factory and we might be forced to buy some and force NATO to buy also. that is the insane trade deal we have with them on all their stuff so far

 

[Ragsdale0509]

The fact remains, the Tavor is simply too overpriced to compete with the AR market. For $2000, you can get a good AR AND a top quality AK.

IWI isn't trying to compete with the AR market because the AR is a conventional rifle and the Tavor is a bullpup. IWI is competing with the FS2000, AUG, and other bullpups. Comparing the Tavor, or any bullpup, to an AR is just plain silly. No AR can match a bullpup for short overall length without sacrificing ballistic performance.

 

[Ragsdale0509]

The factory trigger isn't that bad. After reading all the errornet reports of how heavy and awful it's suppose to be, I was surprised by how light and crisp the trigger was when I handled a Tavor at my local gun shop. The factory trigger in my Colt LE6920 is worst than the factory trigger in the Tavor. While the Tavor trigger is heavier than my LE6920, the Tavor had no creep and felt crisp. My LE6920 has the typical milspec creep before the break.

 

[happygeek]

IWI isn't trying to compete with the AR market because the AR is a conventional rifle and the Tavor is a bullpup. IWI is competing with the FS2000, AUG, and other bullpups. Comparing the Tavor, or any bullpup, to an AR is just plain silly. No AR can match a bullpup for short overall length without sacrificing ballistic performance.

Maybe they're not competing directly, but IMHO all evil black semi-auto rifles are indirectly competing with each other for market share.