Arisaka mum with 3 circles?
- Thread starter Ryanxia
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VinnAY
Member
Mums were required and very commonly defaced on surrender and this one looks very unusual to how that was done which was grinding it odd, "strike" thru it with what looked like a chisel, etc etc. Haven't seen one like this though.
JT-AR-MG42
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The presence of the mum along with the 'Three Eight Type'
show the rifle is not a trainer.
I've never seen a canceled mum with just two circles on a 38 myself,
but have seen others with the Koishikawa Arsenal symbol over the mum
like yours.
Your rifle appears to be a Type 38 with the mum canceled
that would indicate it was removed from Military service.
The character between the mum and the three is the Education Ministry
symbol (or Monbusho), so odds are the rifle was used as a
'trainer' for learning purposes.
JT
show the rifle is not a trainer.
I've never seen a canceled mum with just two circles on a 38 myself,
but have seen others with the Koishikawa Arsenal symbol over the mum
like yours.
Your rifle appears to be a Type 38 with the mum canceled
that would indicate it was removed from Military service.
The character between the mum and the three is the Education Ministry
symbol (or Monbusho), so odds are the rifle was used as a
'trainer' for learning purposes.
JT
Steel Horse Rider
Member
Yup, it was removed from military service and used as either a trainer rifle or a security weapon for a school. The serial number will help with that. I am willing to bet that it is an older Type 38. Does it have only a solid ring for the rear sight? If so it is for sure a training rifle. I have a type 38 carbine made in 1928 that has the Mum struck by the three circles.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Does that alter its shootability?
They are generally termed educational or "school" rifles. Training rifles are a bit different but some conflate the two.
Educational or school rifles were generally made from retired military rifles and are denoted by the circles defacing the mum and you will probably note an extra stamped 00 or 000 in front of the original serial number.
I have a very old T38 carbine that has this mum defacement, double zero added to the serial number--well worn barrel and probably a worn out receiver which caused me to research the issue years ago. From what I recall, they were used to shoot blanks or wooden training rounds because they were made from rifles retired as unserviceable for military use. I would not recommend shooting it because it could have headspace/lug setback/bolt issues among other problems. Brass is expensive enough for 6.5 Arisaka and having it separate on the first firing is not a good thing.
Trying to restore it to shootable may not be possible depending on problems with the receiver and bolt and would certainly be expensive. Sporterizing may also not be worth it if the receiver has unsafe wear (regardless of those who will trot out the Arisaka is the strongest action). If you want to have an Arisaka to sporterize, there are a bunch of receivers and barrels on Gunbroker or around on other auction sites.
In more or less complete condition, it is certainly worth more as a school/educational rifle to a serious Arisaka collector. Especially if it has the original markings in japanese on the stock (which identify the educational institution) and hardware which may be mismatched.
FYI http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=122219
http://user.pa.net/~the.macs/JAPANESE.html
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?232980-Japanese-Type-38-School-Rifle
http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html
Educational or school rifles were generally made from retired military rifles and are denoted by the circles defacing the mum and you will probably note an extra stamped 00 or 000 in front of the original serial number.
I have a very old T38 carbine that has this mum defacement, double zero added to the serial number--well worn barrel and probably a worn out receiver which caused me to research the issue years ago. From what I recall, they were used to shoot blanks or wooden training rounds because they were made from rifles retired as unserviceable for military use. I would not recommend shooting it because it could have headspace/lug setback/bolt issues among other problems. Brass is expensive enough for 6.5 Arisaka and having it separate on the first firing is not a good thing.
Trying to restore it to shootable may not be possible depending on problems with the receiver and bolt and would certainly be expensive. Sporterizing may also not be worth it if the receiver has unsafe wear (regardless of those who will trot out the Arisaka is the strongest action). If you want to have an Arisaka to sporterize, there are a bunch of receivers and barrels on Gunbroker or around on other auction sites.
In more or less complete condition, it is certainly worth more as a school/educational rifle to a serious Arisaka collector. Especially if it has the original markings in japanese on the stock (which identify the educational institution) and hardware which may be mismatched.
FYI http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=122219
http://user.pa.net/~the.macs/JAPANESE.html
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?232980-Japanese-Type-38-School-Rifle
http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html
You appear to have the T38 long rifle sight as the carbine sight mounts are smaller and have a shorter ladder when raised. The handguard length is also different for the carbine instead of the rifle. The barrel length for a carbine is 19.2 inches so you might want to check that.
My suspicion is that it is a training rifle and probably should not be fired. It could also be an odd variant as Arisakas floated around in Asia and were adapted in various countries. It certainly could be rechambered in which case firing live ammo could result in an EXCITING event that is not recommended for health and safety reasons. Certainly before firing, either take it to a reliable gunsmith or do a chamber cast yourself to ensure that it is a rifle that can be fired. Also make sure to include the throat in your cast as well.
However, Nagoya made a few short rifles which can be identified by the japanese marking website link posted above. The arsenal mark is just before the serial number. Supposedly has a 25.0 inch barrel with the regular rifle handguard but I have never seen one in person and identifying one for sure requires expertise.
You might try posting on gunboards.com or milsurps.com forums for a more definitive identification but they will want clear pictures of everything including serials (usually practice is to obscure the last 3 or four digits either digitally or via masking tape/etc.
Here is a picture heavy typical gunboards posting on id'ing an Arisaka rifle. http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?113584-Arisaka-38-questions
Good luck.
If I understand correctly, the "zero(s)" at the start of the serial number actually are simply circles, indicating that the rifle was re-barrelled (twice seems to have been the usual limit, but three have been reported).
The term "training rifle" has been much misunderstood in regard to Japanese Type 38 rifles. The military turned old but serviceable rifles over to the equivalent of our college ROTC for training firing live ammo. Those rifles were not deactivated and were/are perfectly safe to fire with standard ammo. They were also turned over to police and para-military organizations for various purposes.
Other rifles were made for training of the equivalent of our High School ROTC; these were made of cast steel or cast iron and are non-standard; few parts will come anywhere near fitting a standard Type 38. Quality varies; some used worn out barrels, but most are smooth bored, with the barrels made from steel tubing. Some appear to be steering shafts of automobiles, screwed into a larger piece that had the chamber. In some models, the chamber part is one piece with the receiver. Those were made only for use with lightly loaded blanks, (standard 6.5x50 ball will not fit) and I am sure the boys had a lot of fun with them until they "graduated" to more serious weapons.
Jim
The term "training rifle" has been much misunderstood in regard to Japanese Type 38 rifles. The military turned old but serviceable rifles over to the equivalent of our college ROTC for training firing live ammo. Those rifles were not deactivated and were/are perfectly safe to fire with standard ammo. They were also turned over to police and para-military organizations for various purposes.
Other rifles were made for training of the equivalent of our High School ROTC; these were made of cast steel or cast iron and are non-standard; few parts will come anywhere near fitting a standard Type 38. Quality varies; some used worn out barrels, but most are smooth bored, with the barrels made from steel tubing. Some appear to be steering shafts of automobiles, screwed into a larger piece that had the chamber. In some models, the chamber part is one piece with the receiver. Those were made only for use with lightly loaded blanks, (standard 6.5x50 ball will not fit) and I am sure the boys had a lot of fun with them until they "graduated" to more serious weapons.
Jim
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