Arizona dog-walker shooter indicted.

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:rolleyes:
How do you know he charged? How do you know he wasn't running up to the guy to verbally confront him with no ill-will in his mind? The answer is simple, you don't know.

Exactly! That’s what bothers me so much about this homicide – I see where I might have done this myself! Basically, I’m an easy going person. The thought of someone, else, (Even someone with a gun in his hand) actually shooting me when, in fact, I mean him no physical harm, might not occur to me until I saw the muzzle flash! (Or in this particular case 3 muzzle flashes!)

So far, there is no evidence of weapon use or experience in Kuenzli’s background. Neither is it fair to keep referring to him as, ‘crazy’. Grant Kuenzli had his emotional challenges to face in life; but, he certainly wasn’t crazy. I’m a great dog lover, myself; I’ve bred Pit bulls and support the local animal rescue shelter. Were we to have known each other, Grant and I might have been friends.

There a wide gulf between yelling at someone and, even, simple assault and battery. (Which did NOT occur in this homicide.) Previously mentioned Florida case law suggests that unarmed assault and battery does NOT condone the use of deadly force. Grant Kuenzli, to the best of my knowledge, has no record of assault in ANY degree on anyone.

It is entirely possible that Kuenzli may not have, so much as, dreamed that one man would shoot another. We, all, know that there are people in this world who are largely pacifistic in their thinking, and do NOT behave in the same manner as the rest of us. Kuenzli may have wanted to, simply, place his body between the shooter, and his beloved dogs. That’s not something he should have been executed for.

On an entirely practical note: I carry two guns and a knife everyday of my life. I am by anyone's definition of the term an experienced gunman. I consider myself to be God-fearing and socially ethical, too. In my heart-of-hearts I know that I wouldn’t have shot Kuenzli as he came at me – Not with empty hands, I wouldn’t have! I strongly suspect that I would have been holstering in order to meet him with open hands to try and calm him down. (That WAS an option, too, correct!) If I apply this standard to my own behavior, then, I have to ascribe it to the Kuenzli homicide, too.

The way I see it, as the gun culture continues to expand in America, (And it IS expanding.) too many semi-skilled undisciplined civilians are hitting the highways and byways with guns on their belts. Years ago I only had to worry about bad guys with guns; today, I have to worry about everyone with a gun – good and bad, alike! Nowadays, I only shoot with other gunmen whom I know well. I never go to the range alone; and I am extremely leery of anyone I meet who wants to do something like take his, ‘trophy’ out of the holster to show it off.

In the past 10 years I can’t count the number of, ‘civilians with guns’ that have done something like: load a weapon while pointing the muzzle in my direction, swept me with the muzzle while handling a gun, or made the god-awful mistake of freely handling an, ‘empty gun’ around me that was subsequently discovered to fully charged!

Human nature being what it is, I have to imagine that once one of these civilians pulls a gun everybody is in danger; and once that trigger is pulled the first time – for whatever reason – it’s ridiculously easy for, ‘Joe Civilian’ to just keep on shooting. The gun’s out; it’s been fired; the shooter’s suddenly, ‘empowered’; and, now, any excuse will do!

The reasons to prosecute the shooter in this case have nothing to do with liberal or conservative themes. A civilized society, simply, cannot allow any, ‘hair-trigger precedent’ of this ill-defined nature to be set. The shooter, here, may be or become an object of popular sympathy. That’s understandable. People do tend to favor the living over the dead.

Unfortunately for the shooter in this homicide, there’s no clearly definable evidence of attack. As previously mentioned Florida case law points out: The mere issuance of a verbal threat, alone, is insufficient reason to use deadly force. (And, let’s not forget that we have, only, the shooter’s word that a threat was issued.) By the shooter’s own admission, the dogs had already retreated. I believe him here, too, because this would explain, ‘Why’ none of them were shot. Kuenzli was coming forward, all right; and, again by the shooter’s admission, without a visible weapon in either hand. Again unfortunately for the shooter no physical contact and, worse, no personal injury occurred in this incident to anyone except the victim.

For the record, the shooter’s story HAS been changing since he was originally interviewed immediately after the shooting. Subsequent reports continue to paint Kuenzli as more and more threatening. I’ve said it before; and I’ll say it, again: This is a very poor example of a, ‘righteous shoot’. I, myself, wouldn’t handle a sidearm in such a quick and irresponsible manner; and I very much doubt that a majority of THR posters would – either. Most of us (but apparently not all of us) know better!

This case needs to be prosecuted for, both, everybody’s protection as well as the general public good. Imagine the social precedent that would be set if it were not! All of our CHL’s would have to start with, ‘007’; and any flimsy excuse to open fire would, then, suffice. Nothing Grant Kuenzli did that afternoon warranted his execution. He didn’t have an easy life; that he met with an unexpected sudden death is irrefutable. Perhaps, someone should offer a novena for his soul. Not a bad idea – right! ;)
 
People are innocent until proven guilty.

And yet you are convinced Kuenzli is guilty of charging his killer. You found him guilty of attempted assault among crimes and confirmed his death sentence. Guess that rule only applies to gun owners eh?

At least the shooter gets the luxury of a trial, and might be proven innocent.



Kuenzli was living in the woods near Payson, but he showered and shaved every day and was well-adjusted, McCauley said.

He worked as a fire inspector for the Gilbert Fire Department from July 1998 to April 1999.

Kuenzli also had a Web site listing himself as a pet photographer and appeared on an Internet listing of Arizonans for Howard Dean.

"He had plenty of money, a bank account and a $1,000 check on him when he was killed," McCauley said.

Sounds to me like he was perfectly happy with his choice. There is no law that says you have to be a suburbanite. The man had a bank account and income, hardly a bum. Surely this thread isn't going to sink to the contemptable low of destroying the character of the deceased now is it?
 
This case needs to be investigated . Using deadly force is not to be taken lightly . Once you kill someone you can't bring them back to life . You will have to answear for what you have done . IMO the hiker should not have even fired a warning shot . Unless the dog actually attacked him he should have kept his gun in the holster . I had a similar experience walking back to my car on a fire trail after going fishing . A huge German Shepherd (a fine specimen of its breed) came toward me from around a bend in the trail . The dog was not on a leash and was coming straight at me at a trot . I stopped and using a forceful and commanding tone of voice said stop . To my surprise and relief the dog stopped . Two seconds later a woman and the dogs twin came around the bend and walked by me without as much as a nod . By law , the dogs should have been on a leash , I would have told her that but I was so mad I felt the best thing to do was to keep my mouth shut and keep walking . Unarmed man ? I would not call a person in control of three aggresive dogs "unarmed". The guy with the dogs should have had them restrained or muzzled and the other guy should not have fired a shot unless the dog(s) actually attacked him . When you shoot someones pet they aren't going to be too happy about it , of course if someones pet attacks me I'm not going to be too happy about it either . BTW people have been beaten to death by unarmed men .
 
Got any proof ?

As a matter of fact I do . A guy I knew from work was beaten to death in the parking lot of a bar called The Fifteen Mile House , on Reisterstown Rd. in Baltimore county about 12 or so years ago . He was a big strong guy but he had too much to drink . He had gotten into a fight on the parking lot with a guy who was smaller than him but it turned out the smaller guy had been a wreastler and used a wreastleing move to take him down . After the smaller guy got him on the pavement he slammed the back of the bigger guys head onto the pavement and that was "all she wrote" . I was told that a cop that was on the other side of the road ( a busy four lane highway) heard the guys skull pop .
 
I for one don't believe that I have to let someone shoot at me first or stick a knife in my first before I can use deadly force.To to have known more then one person who was beat to death. People who think you need to be shot first or stabbed first how they don't ever make AZ their home we are getting to many liberals as it is. Bet if it happened in Yavapai County their would be no Grand Jury. Here yet liberal and Democrat are bad words
 
I for one don't believe that I have to let someone shoot at me first or stick a knife in my first before I can use deadly force.

I don't recall anyone saying anything to the contrary.
 
Got any proof?


:rolleyes: Look at things the other way: There IS proof that Grant Kuenzli never beat anyone to death. :D

In the past 15 years I've been attacked twice. Once my home was broken into; my dogs took care of that one for me; and, late one night when I went to the store for a gallon of milk, I got jumped in a parking lot by a guy who wanted my new SUV. It's funny, but at least in my life, the ones that need shooting are blatantly obvious and the surrounding circumstances - unmistakable. ;)
 
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pinblaster
Unless the dog actually attacked him he should have kept his gun in the holster .
Sorry, but that may be one of the dumbest things I've ever read. You're saying that he should've waited until he was injured and possibly dying before he drew his weapon instead of using it to prevent the attack in the first place?

Muzzleflash
I don't need to shoot an unarmed man to defend myself against him.
Maybe we should add that to the list of "famous last words".

PBIR
why did he get indicted?
A good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a paper bag.

Kuenzli died because he made a dumber choice than the dogs. Whether this was due to his love of the animals or the drugs in his system is unknown, but we do know the results.
 
Cannibal , I am not saying you should wait until you are injured or dying before you defend yourself . Are you suggesting everytime a dog runs towards you that you need to shoot at it ? Are you saying it's also O.K. to shoot someone that confronts you who is unarmed and hasn't laid a hand on you ? I wasn't there , you wern't there and the only ones who were there are the gun guy , the dead guy and the dogs . If I thought I was under attack I would not be firing a warning shot , I would be shooting to stop the threat . We don't know for sure what really happend , hence the need for a trial .
 
Kuenzli died because he made a dumber choice than the dogs.

That is merely an opinion. Another is that he died because his killer is a coward who over-reacted. I could see it going either way. Until all the evidence is heard both are just interpretations based on a few meager reports.

A good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a paper bag.

Again, merely an opinion.

Are you saying it's also O.K. to shoot someone that confronts you who is unarmed and hasn't laid a hand on you ? I wasn't there , you wern't there and the only ones who were there are the gun guy , the dead guy and the dogs . If I thought I was under attack I would not be firing a warning shot , I would be shooting to stop the threat . We don't know for sure what really happend , hence the need for a trial .

My point exactly. I tell you what is outrageous: How quick some of you are willing to write off Kuenzli's life, even though there are no witnesses whatsoever to the shooter's claims and there is enough evidence to indict him for second degree murder.
 
Why second degree murder and not man. 1


That is part of what is outrageous here. Why such a charge? Maybe to get a deal working?


If Fish is convicted the anti crowd is going to have a field day.
 
The shooter dropped his hiking staff to draw his pistola.He would be in no trouble today if he had used it instead of choosing to shoot.Hopefully the truth will come out in the trial.I carry everyday,I will shoot if I have to.That said I am not walking around afraid of my own shadow.I spent 20 yrs. behind bars in my job, it is not a nice place to be.Something to think about before you pull the trigger.
 
Why second degree murder and not man. 1

That is part of what is outrageous here. Why such a charge? Maybe to get a deal working?

If Fish is convicted the anti crowd is going to have a field day.


:rolleyes: The reduced charge indicates that the DA doesn't believe the shooter acted with, either, premeditation or malice of forethought. Nothing more. I don't agree about the notion that the average person is going to celebrate a conviction in this case. Instead the public might be reassured that those of us who go armed, realize that we must do so responsibly. In a way this prosecution may serve to allow gun owners to, more or less, 'keep their own house in order'.

Things won’t get, ‘nasty’ for us until there are too many homicides like the Kuenzli case. Then we'll, really, be in trouble; and Arizona (and other states as well) might take a real hard look at the right-to-carry laws. Personally I welcome this trial. Let's get the prosecution and defense arguments, out, on the table and get this over with. ;)
 
The thing is you don't have to wait until your attacked to use deadly force if you feel your life is in danger. At least in most of AZ it is that way. From some of the post i've read I can't help but wonder why some would want a CCW to start with. As far as if the dog would bite him or not if someone can't tell 98% of the time if a dog is agressive or not they haven't been around many dogs. I have yet to talk to anyone who lives in AZ and has a CCW who doesn't think the guy is getting the shaft from a gun grabbing liberal. In AZ you have the right to defend yourself or at least you use to tell all the liberals started coming to AZ!!
 
I carry a weapon in case my life is threatened and I have to protect it. I expect the majority of others will tell you the same.

My point is that I'm not convinced the shooter's life was threatened, and apparantly neither are quiet a lot of other folks.
 
C Crowly

You're saying that he should've waited until he was injured and possibly dying before he drew his weapon instead of using it to prevent the attack in the first place?

Personally I would have used pepper spray first.

One time I was walking the dog on a late night break from my armed security job,I was in a large unlit park late at night-suddenly I hear growling and running toward me and my dog. My old dog can only fart so it's not going to save me ...I quickly reached for my-------------------
Flashlight

I shined that little light of mine and turned a large dangerous sounding dog into a big puppy that wanted to play.
The owner came running up and aplogized right away. It was so dark she didn't know I was carrying a gun (armed security)...

As far as I can tell,it was a good shoot. The homeless guy was an early Dean for President supporter-everyone knows how dangerous and stupid those folks are!:neener:
 
I did the flashlight thing with an idiot neighbor's idiot dog once in the early AM hours.

It got out of its cage and the yard and was prowling the alley and it and the dog that did not escape were barking at each other. I got out of bed and watched this go on for a while. Then another neighbor is walking home and the dog lunges at him. So now I'm really pissed, I call 911 (at the same time the other neighbor is) and grab my 4-cell out of my car.

The dog starts growling and barking at me, then I hit it with the light and it runs away back into it's owner's car park. We play this game awhile until the cops show and their lights and radio noise finally wake up the neighbor who puts it away, and tries to say since she does not really "own" the dog it is not her fault. :rolleyes:

So yes, you don't always need to shoot a dog but sometimes that is your only option.
 
Gee, I see a lot of sympathy for a guy who wasn't as smart as the documented historically viscious dogs that he negligently and dangerously left unleashed in a public area.


It sounds to me like the police thought it was a good shoot. Without more information, information that we will not have until the trial, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the investigating officer. Why? Because where I live I would be indicted for shooting someone in self-defense if I had anything less than a carload of nuns as witnesses to support me. Prosecutors are political animals by definition, homicide investigators at least have the potential to be non-political. Considering that it was the homicide investigators job to try and build a case against the shooter, and that the investigator had reason to think the shooting was in self-defense, well, I guess I am going to listen to the professional opinion before I listen to the politician.

Remember, that poor guy in NYC that was indicted by a prosecutor after defending his family from an intruder in his own home? I do.
 
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