Arm the pilots, arm the cabin crew, arm law-abiding citizens.

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From Michelle Malkin:

A MYSTERY IN THE SKIES
By Michelle Malkin · January 14, 2005 10:58 PM
Physician blogger Dr. Bob says one of his patients, a federal air marshal, told him about a foiled hijacking involving boxcutters hidden in overhead luggage bins:

He and his partner were assigned to a flight (the airline, airport, and destination were not disclosed) in their customary undercover security role. They boarded the airplane early in order to meet the flight attendants, at which time the cleaning crew was still on the airplane -- somewhat longer than expected. My patient and his partner sat together in seats near the middle of coach class.
The passengers began to board, and he and his partner noticed a single Middle Eastern man sitting near the front of first class. After a number of passengers had boarded, two Middle Eastern men walked by this man and made eye contact, but said nothing. They sat down together in the front of coach class. Shortly thereafter, two other Middle Eastern men also walked by the man in first class and made eye contact without speaking. They sat near the back of coach class.

Shortly after the flight attendants completed their post-boarding check of the overhead bins, an announcement came from the cockpit: the pilot stated that there had been a security breach, and everyone needed to deboard the plane for a second, more thorough, security screening. The Air Marshall and his partner were confused, as they had not triggered the security alert nor been notified of it prior to the announcement.

After all the passengers had deplaned, the Federal Air Marshalls checked with the flight attendants for more information. During a final check of the overhead bins, a flight attendant had noticed that one of the blankets was slightly unfolded, and he repositioned it in the bin. At this time, a razor blade fell out of the blanket. Concerned, but still believing this might be a straightforward mistake, the flight attendant began to check other overhead bins. Several additional incompletely folded blankets were noted, and hidden in each one was a box cutter: a total of five. It appeared that these had been placed there by the cleaning crew prior to the boarding of the airplane.

After the repeat security screening, the passengers reboarded -- all except the five Middle Eastern men, who were nowhere to be found. The flight proceeded to its destination uneventfully.

It's hard to imagine, in a post-9/11 world, that terrorists would attempt another attack with box cutters. Also, Dr. Bob's patient did not disclose specifics--airport, airline, destination, etc.--that would facilitate confirmation. If anyone can provide more information, drop me a line.

Whether or not the story is true, it highlights at least two important policy questions:

1. What kind of security measures are being undertaken with regard to clean-up crews and other ground personnel with access to airplanes?

2. Why does FAMS director Tom Quinn continue to enforce idiotic pre-boarding policies that expose marshals' identities to observant passengers?

Update: The idea that terrorist operatives might be trying to smuggle razor blades as weapons onto planes is not pure fantasy. Last April, Pakistani illegal alien Fazal Karim was convicted on charges of carrying and attempting to carry concealed dangerous weapons in air transportation and of making false statements about his immigration status. Security officials at Dallas/Ft. Worth airport found 32 double-edged razor blades tucked in a coiled belt inside a cardboard box in Fazal Karim's carry-on luggage.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Fred Schattman argued that Karim carried out a test run to aid terrorism. The Ft. Worth Star Telegram reported that security officers first noticed that Karim appeared to distance himself from his carry-on bag. After placing the bag on the conveyor belt leading to an X-ray machine, Karim did not walk through the adjacent magnetometer but selected one farther away. He offered FBI agents three different explanations for the blades, Schattman said. First, Karim said he used the blades to shave the bottom of his full beard. Then he said they were for a friend in Houston. Finally, he said he did not know the blades were in the bag. More:

At a hearing in November, a federal agent testified that the names and phone numbers of the current directors of the civil aviation systems in Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates were found in Karim's address book _ 10 years after he worked as a computer programmer for the Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority.
"It was indicative of his familiarity with air transportation security systems," Schattman said. "We believe he was testing security measures."

In addition, I've found at least one other mention of a flight crew member discovering razor blades in blankets.

Weird. Scary weird.

Update II: Reader Eric makes some additional, on-target points...

For me at least, there is another lesson in this story.
You will note that the breach in security was discovered by responsible, observant individual citizens, not the government officials who were there at the time.

We have seen this time and again, with the passengers on the plane that crashed in PA, the cabin attendant who spotted the terrorist with a bomb in his shoe, and on and on.

I believe that true security rests in the individual vigilance of a proud and free people who are not dependent on a nanny state to look out for their welfare or safety. I hope you agree.

Arm the pilots, arm the cabin crew, arm law-abiding citizens. I will be the first in line to buy tickets on such an airline.


Update III: Several air marshals write to say that the story told by Dr. Bob's patient sounds true. Here's an excerpt from one e-mail I received:

I am a FAM (Federal Air Marshal) and wanted to respond to your Jan. 14th article about a foiled hijacking.... Except for a few minor details the Jan. 14th article you wrote is mostly correct. We have seen this scenario happen a few times and have also found razor blades on the plane before passengers have boarded.
 
1. What kind of security measures are being undertaken with regard to clean-up crews and other ground personnel with access to airplanes?

Bahahah! Not a damned thing! Not only that, but anybody and their sister can just fly into most airports abord a private plane, and walk around on the ramp. No security check, no nuttin.

All the "take off your shoes and drop your pants" garbage are feel-good drills, not even intended to provide any measure of security.

Arm the pilots, arm the cabin crew, arm law-abiding citizens.

THIS will give us security in air travel, and nothing less will do.
 
I'm going to have to disagree with this one. The skin of an airplane is easily penetrated by a standard pistol round, and the last thing we need are untrained individuals firing in a closely packed area. Even if you require frangible ammunition to be used, the airlines wouldn't allow passenger carry on a liability basis. If you miss, and hit a bystander, then the airline could easily be sued.

I'm all for the crew being armed, if they're properly trained. The cockpit is locked and reinforced against forced entry, but having the flight crew armed with frangible rounds and trained properly would be good. If the cabin crew were all armed and trained with tazers, with a pair of crew members with additional training for properly securing a resisting subject, that would be better.

Heck, if civilians want to bring their own tazers, more power to them. I'm just not comfortable with bullets making holes in airplanes, or people.
 
DelayedReaction, I think that having one or two people put a hole or three into the side of a plane vs losing the whole plane and all passengers is an ok tradeoff.

Besides, a 9mm hole, a .45 caliber hole, whatever, doesn't take a plane down, not by a longshot.
 
Whether or not the story is true . . .
Well it's not a true story, and "Dr. Bob" is full of BS. There are particular details provided in that story which show it's not true. Don't ask, because I'm not giving away the tricks of the trade.
 
Delayed Reaction, consider this: You're on a commercial flight with 300 or 400 passengers. Some hijackers start to do their thing, using knives as their weapons, grabbing flight attendants as hostages.

So I pull out my trusty hogleg and shoot through a flight attendant and kill both the attendant and the terrorist. I put a hole or two in the skin of the plane and maybe wound or kill another passenger. Others follow my lead and the plane is saved.

So: Two or three dead flight attendants and two or three dead passengers. Some dead terrs and the plane lands safely.

The alternative? 300 or 400 dead passengers, plus the crew and the plane and the target on the ground. And, I'm told, as to current procedures, we've avoided losing the whole deal via a rocket from an F-16.

What's the problem?

Art
 
If passengers were allowed to carry, I'm pretty sure the hostage takers would have a gun vs. having a box cutter.
 
I'm all for having enhanced security within our planes, I just feel that we need to have it confined somewhat. I'm setting the scenario with the assumption that the terrorists will be limited to hand weapons, and against that threat a taser is a perfectly acceptable device.

The cockpit is locked and secured against intrusion; we're not going to see a repeat of 9/11 because the pilots are inaccessible. Frankly I don't think any terrorist is going to be able to perform a hijacking because of how much resistance the passengers will offer.

Do you really think you'll have what it takes to just shoot through an innocent hostage like that? Should you even have that responsibility? I certainly don't think so, and I don't think the hostage would appreciate it all that much either. There's a difference between encountering a mugger on a darkened street, and encountering a terrorist surrounded by screaming people.
 
well intentioned bad idea

I believe arming the crew would just mean now there are firearms available to any reasonably competent terrorist. BAAAAAAAAAD Idea. A 50 year old flight attendant with jet lag versus somebody who knew she was carrying and wanted her gun would be no contest.
 
Any reasonably competent terrorist could get firearms onto a plane themselves, and not rely on taking them off an armed man in a room he's locked out of. Probably by infiltrating the TSA, and having a plant just walk the gun around the metal detector for them. It's not like it's a secret that the TSA is a joke.

Fortunately, "competent", and "terrorist", are not words that often belong together.

Now, arming the stewards, THAT would be foolish, as they're in no position to avoid being overwhelmed by suprise.
 
If anybody thinks that we are going to be in charge of our own security think again. There is no way we will remove all the new federal employees called TSA. Bet this agency gets bigger.
 
The reason I'm against arming passengers is that its a numbers game. Example: in most states that have CCW, the average percentage of folks that actually have licenses is about 2% or less. Consider that of those, probably about 1/3 are actually going to carry on a regular basis and less than 10% of CCW holders will have had ANY sort of training or even rudimentary instruction in tactics. So, with 300 passengers on board a flight, you could safely assume that MAYBE three people are carrying, and if you're lucky, only one of those has any training on how to properly use a handgun, especially in tight quarters. Now, in addition to the three law-abiding citizens, you have five middle eastern gentlemen all carrying, all trained at Mr. OBL's camps in Crapistan, and all very willing to sacrifice themselves for their cause. How long do you think its going to take before those five ME men are going to overwhelm the well-intentioned, but pathetically inadequate, attempts by the three CCW holders to stop them? I'm thinking a matter of minutes. Sure, the terrorists might lose a couple, but in the end, they are still in charge, with weapons equal to or greater than anything that the flight crew might be packing.
 
Aw, in my little "let's pretend" world, I'm taking it for granted that when the terrs stand up and go to doing the takeover, everybody then knows who they are.

Until resistance starts, how do the terrs know who's a CHL guy or gal?

As for "Oh, my, what do I do?" about the hypothet of me being armed and a terr with a hostage, I figured that out on 9/12. Was it a Dirty Harry flick where the Bad Guy threatens to kill his hostage, and was met with the rejoinder, "And then what do you do?" Sure, a movie, but the idea is still valid. I agree with the Israelis, whose philosophy is basically that a hostage is already dead, and there's no need to negotiate. The reality of TSA is that my hypothet is merely mental play-games...

However, even without a gun, resistance means some slim chance of survival for many. Without any resistance, there's a 100% chance of all dying. This latter does not appeal to me. What, I should sit back all comfy with my seatback reclined, and not worry about a sudden stop?

Art
 
We need a way to convince the pilots, cabin crew, and passengers that they want to be armed.

Then there will be changes.

Just giving someone a firearm does not make that person "armed".
 
No, we need to convince Bush that Norm Minetta has to go. Quite a few of the pilots already want to be armed, but Minetta has been sabotoging the program from the very start, I must assume with the President's blessing.
 
. . . in my little "let's pretend" world, I'm taking it for granted . . .
Well sir, there is the problem. You are assuming things which may, and very well will not be true. How do you know when four guys stand up to take over they're the only four, and there aren't more waiting? How do you know who is a terrorist, and who is another CWP holder like you? Think you can tell because of what they look like? Great so some Indian guy, or Isreali, or some Arab who like most hates terrorists as much as you gets wacked because you didn't like the way he looked. Not a good plan.

Think there aren't some guys out there that look just like you, but will commit terrorist acts?

Think again.

vert.lindh.jpg
John Lindh

t1.mcveigh.jpg

Tim McVeigh

unabomber.jpg
Ted Kazinksi

image582053l.jpg Shelley Shannon

You see I'm just not willing to redo the shootout at the OK corral at 35K feet, in a confined space, with people who are taking things like that for granted. Call me silly, but I think the problem gets a little more complicated than most people really have considered when you have 150 people jammed together in such a tight space, and no one knows who the good guys are, and who the bad guys are.
 
To all of you confined space ninnies, if I can carry on a Bus, why can't I do so on a plane?

You're scaring yourselves into nothing. Terrorists only prey on the weak and helpless. If passangers are armed, planes will simply get crossed off their list.

As for the plane, it will be fine. It's been tested&proven, even a .357SIG right through a WINDOW just made a hole. Planes leak like a sive already (they have to, there's no 'out' valve for pressure, just an in pump. If the plane didn't leak, the pressure would stay built up when the plane landed!)
 
DMF, since 9/11 I don't figure a hijacker is gonna take us on a vacation jaunt to Havana.

So, I can do nothing and enjoy a sudden stop into some building. I can try to do something and maybe waste the last 20 minutes of my life, or I can maybe get lucky and not die at all.

If there's some unknown terr who pops me first, what difference does that make? Maybe some other CHL then does him.

Even if I'm not among the lucky ones, better to try to do something than just sit back and "relax" so the Nice Men can do their daily bidness.

When the choice is sit still and die, or jump in and maybe not die, I just don't understand the problem.

Art
 
I've never understood the way antigunners think. The armed society =polite society argument should explain it all, but they just don't get it. I would much rather be able to CCW on a plane than sit there like a sheep.
 
DMF

All the folks you listed above, have one thing in common. They did not ram an airliner into a building. Muslim males did that one.


Tricks of the trade????? :scrutiny:
 
Hey Art, I see your point, but when everyone is pulling their gats at 35K feet, how do you know who is a "terrorist" and who is a "good guy" like you? The terrorists will all know each other, and be working together. You and the other "good guys" won't. You may very well end up shooting it out with other "good guys," while the terrorists wait for their odds of success to go up.

This issue is a lot more complicated than rhetoric about wanting to go out fighting.

As a wise man once posted on this very forum:
Sloganeering doesn't work, and high emotions don't help.
Art I'll give you one guess who wrote that. If you need a clue his initials are A E. ;)
 
All the folks you listed above, have one thing in common. They did not ram an airliner into a building.
Well just because Muslims were first doesn't mean that people like Tim McVeigh and Shelley Shannon can't do it next time. A simplistic approach to labeling who is a terrorist, and who is not, will only increase the danger. Also, since you're hung up on Muslim males (by the way Muslim is about religion not race, there are plenty of non-Arab Muslims), do you remember the gender of the people that took down the two Russian airliners a few months ago? I'll give you a hint, they weren't men. ;)
 
But, Muslim Males, or should I say, Males that happen to be Muslim are the ones that are doing 95% of all terrorists acts against the US.



do you remember the gender of the people that took down the two Russian airliners a few months ago? I'll give you a hint, they weren't men.


Yep the gender was female, you got me there. But, the were MUSLIM....HMM, connection.....
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5889819/site/newsweek/
 
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