Armed husband stops suspected car thief

[majake]

There was a story in the San Francisco Chronicle today about a man who chased a suspected car thief through city streets and a park and held the thief at gunpoint. The wife had started the car and left it running. The thief got in the car and drove off. The husband got into another car and was armed. He chased the thief through the city and cut off the stolen car. The thief left the vehicle and the husband chased him through a park on foot and caught him and held him at gunpoint. The thief was arrested and the husband was not charged with anything.
I would like to get some opinions on this as it became a somewhat heated discussion at a Christmas party this evening.
1. Is it a good idea for citizens to be conducting car chases on city streets?
2. Is it a good idea to chase suspected thieves through a park with a gun?
3. Was the fact that the husband was carrying a loaded weapon in a car and foot chase a violation of California law?
4. Was the use of a loaded weapon to make the citizen's arrest justified?

 

[Mr.Blue]

The guy acted instinctively without using his head.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm glad it worked out well for him, but I'm VERY surprised it did.

1: Absolutely not, and in most places it probably breaks numerous laws.
2: See above. In most places, that would at very least get your CPL suspended, and possibly jail. And he's lucky another armed citizen didn't see him chasing someone at gun point and think he was the bad guy.
3: I don't know. Though I can't imagine it would be that hard to come up with more than a few laws that he broke.
4: It can be. But since there was no threat in this case, and the man was breaking laws himself by chasing, it was certainly not the right move to make an armed citizen's arrest.

Again, I am extremely surprised the victim didn't lose his CPL, get arrested, and charged with some crime. He acted in a stupid and unsafe manner from start to finish and he's lucky to have lived through it unscathed.

 

[Robert]

1. Is it a good idea for citizens to be conducting car chases on city streets?

Uh heck no. Don't want your car stolen don't leave it running unattended. Something like 50% of car thefts where I live are because people leave their car running to warm up unattended. I imagine he broke more than a few laws in doing so.

2. Is it a good idea to chase suspected thieves through a park with a gun?

A good idea? Good God no. If it were holstered and it were simply a foot chase maybe. But even then you are not a cop nor do you get paid to risk your life over something like a car. You have insurance for a reason.

3. Was the fact that the husband was carrying a loaded weapon in a car and foot chase a violation of California law?

Not sure, you'd have to check state and local law.

4. Was the use of a loaded weapon to make the citizen's arrest justified?

Over a property crime? I highly doubt it. Had he witnessed a beating or mugging or shooting where he could articulate danger to others maybe. But a stolen car... He is very lucky he did not end up in jail or worse.

 

[Hit_Factor]

Uh heck no.

Great answers!

 

[thefamcnaj]

I know in SC you can not use a fire arm under any circumstances to protect personal property, if there is no chance of you recieving bodily harm. If you draw your fire arm in a defense situation and the BG turns and runs away, then its over. The moment he stops being a threat to you, deadly force is off the table.
If that were me in my state, Id be going to jail. Also if I remember correctly, I would never be justified in engaging in a car Chase.

 

[Hit_Factor]

I've been thinking about this for a bit now.

Living in Michigan and having a valid CPL I would be armed during a similar incident. If this occurred at my home the difference in my response would be.

1. Legally armed.
2. Tell my wife we both are going to miss her Honda.
3. Call the police and file a report.
4. Suggest to my wife that she locks the running (new) car while it warms up.

The man in the news may have been legally armed. I just don't know enough about CA state and local laws.

 

[Averageman]

Chasing a thief is setting yourself up to run in to an ambush.
Turn the corner wide and it's lights out.

 

[HOWARD J]

IN MI -- you can get in trouble for (harming) stopping a thief from stealing your property outside your house or from detached garage.--especially in Wayne County.
If they come in your house or are carjacking you or robbing you in the street ---you are in fear for your life--you may use deadly force.

 

[Bushpilot]

I agree with Blue and Ragnar, he wasn't thinking but I'm glad it worked out for him. I'm also glad that he didn't hurt anyone during the chase. My understanding is that deadly force is justified to protect people, not property in most states and that criminals inside your home constitutes a threat in and of itself...

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

A link to the article would be nice. The Chronicle's website is http://sfgate.com

Where, exactly, did it happen? The city of San Francisco, and most of the cities within a 100-mile radius, deeply frown on this sort of thing. It is almost inconceivable that he had a CCW, which is the only way you can carry a loaded gun outside of your home. In SF proper (the city and county are the same), no private citizen of ordinary means ever gets one. Just because he wasn't charged with anything at the time the article was written, doesn't mean he won't be later. Further complicating matters, there are no absolute answers to some of the questions:

1. Is it a good idea for citizens to be conducting car chases on city streets?

This is one of those questions. In general, no. How many of us are trained in this kind of driving? Police vehicles have great big red and blue lights and sirens to identify themselves; you do not. I can think of some limited circumstances where you may need to follow a vehicle for a short time, while on your cell phone to the police, to give them an approximate location and heading.

2. Is it a good idea to chase suspected thieves through a park with a gun?

This has bad idea written all over it. If only property was taken, I can think of no circumstances where you should.

3. Was the fact that the husband was carrying a loaded weapon in a car and foot chase a violation of California law?

The loaded weapon in public, yes. The chase is a grey area, but I know of no law there that prohibits it.

4. Was the use of a loaded weapon to make the citizen's arrest justified?

You would be on very shaky ground. (Pun intended.) But the law does allow for the citizen's arrest, although, as a practical matter, it hasn't been used for many years.

 

[Mp7]

complete adrenalin override.

Lucky it didn´t become a gunfight.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Imagine you're a CPL holder or even an LEO who happens to see a car screech to a halt in a parking lot. A few seconds later, another car speeds into the lot and stops. A guy with a gun jumps out of the second car and points it at the driver of the first.

How exactly are you supposed to know the guy with the gun is actually the good guy in this situation?

 

[Specs]

The simple solution here is to call 911, and then OnStar if so equipped. I won't chase anyone unless he murdered one of my family in front of me, and even then, not too sure, can't shoot someone who is escaping, only assaulting.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Imagine you're a CPL holder or even an LEO who happens to see a car screech to a halt in a parking lot. A few seconds later, another car speeds into the lot and stops. A guy with a gun jumps out of the second car and points it at the driver of the first.

How exactly are you supposed to know the guy with the gun is actually the good guy in this situation?

You can't tell the players without a scorecard; in fact, there is no scorecard.
The CPL holder should find a place of comparative safety and try to be the best possible witness. LEOs will bring backup, arrest all the players and sort it out later. A wrong move by any of the players could result in disaster.

 

[RetroMan]

I would like to get some opinions on this as it became a somewhat heated discussion at a Christmas party this evening.
1. Is it a good idea for citizens to be conducting car chases on city streets?
2. Is it a good idea to chase suspected thieves through a park with a gun?
3. Was the fact that the husband was carrying a loaded weapon in a car and foot chase a violation of California law?
4. Was the use of a loaded weapon to make the citizen's arrest justified?

1. No
2. Where lawfull, and if you can actually catch him, yes.
3. Moot point (to me anyway) as the husband was not arrested.
4. Where lawfull, yes.

I firmly believe where these actions are lawfull there will be less serious crime.

 

[Firemedic56]

1. Is it a good idea for citizens to be conducting car chases on city streets?

Not even in the slightest, at least not for property. Had his wife or child been in the car.. Well you would have to decided what risk you would be willing to take and to what more risk you would be willing to expose your loved ones to.

2. Is it a good idea to chase suspected thieves through a park with a gun?

Most likely no, as always it depends on the situation. But just remember that any time you chase anyone in a situation where weapons are involved you are passing risk of your choosing onto strangers you encounter when they had no choice. So for property, is that a good wager?

3. Was the fact that the husband was carrying a loaded weapon in a car and foot chase a violation of California law?

Wouldn't know

4. Was the use of a loaded weapon to make the citizen's arrest justified?

Again, if circumstances dictate it, then yes. However, for property that the thief abandoned... is it a prudent choice?


My main point is CCW doesn't make you LE and it doesn't make you capable of fighting crime. Always protect yourself if necessary but just know when you've surpassed necessity and moved out of the realm of your expertise. Just be smart.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Unless my kid was in the back seat (making me a total D.A. in first place) I pay taxes for other people to chase my stolen car.

 

[mljdeckard]

Retroman, you care to explain why you think it's a good idea to chase any dangerous person?

 

[Ringolevio]

Where I live, even the cops terminate a car chase when it gets too dangerous, unless a capital crime is involved. Police car chases have resulted in death and injury to innocent persons.

If this car chase had resulted in anyone (even the alleged perp!) being injured or killed, the pursuer would be legally complicit. He might even be charged (or sued in civil court) for property damages associated with the chase.

The bottom line in all this seems, to me, that the husband did things he would not have done if he were not armed. And I think we all know that being legally-armed does not make you a cop in an action movie.

Edit: And it especially doesn't make you Steve McQueen racing through the streets of San Francisco in "Bullitt"!

Gee, San Francisco! What if he'd plowed into a "Gay Pride" parade??

 

[ball3006]

Magic phrase here is, "left the car running on the street in a city". Same as "please steal me".......Wife needs some remedial training on car ownership. Would I chase the guy? I doubt it.....chris3

 

[buck460XVR]

In many respects the husband was more of a danger to the community than the car thief. He's dang lucky he didn't injure some innocent by-stander with his recklessness. At no point was there a direct threat to his or anyone else's life. As far as I know, the use of deadly force for the protection of personal property is only legal in Texas....and for good reason. A car is easily replaced and because of overcrowding in Cali prisons, the thief was probably back on the streets by the next day. Seems hardly worth the risk taken by this Mall Ninja.

 

[lightman]

That sounds like something I would do.That does not make it right,or smart.I'm glad it worked out for him.I leave my company truck running alot,when I'm working behind customers houses,in the alleys,ect.I have an extra key in my pocket,and lock the door.It sounds like wifey needs another key,and some more insurance on hubby! Lightman

 

[MachIVshooter]

He was incredibly lucky. It just happened that the deck was stacked in his favor. Ordinarily, this type of action movie behavior will have a tragic outcome.

 

[Susanna]

1-No. Especially in California, a car chase usually ends up really badly... even for cops, who are trained in doing so. Some PDs won't even go into pursuit in certain circumstances - the danger to the public is too great, especially in urban areas...

2-Was the guy a CCW holder? Was he open carrying? Was the firearm holstered when he was playing John Rambo after Jack R. DeCar, or was he waving it around like Barney Fife? Of course, it is written to make it sound like he was a psycho gun-waving idjit... but then again, look who published the story... Not having read the article, was it in downtown SF or in Alturas? Bigbdif in the 2... and the chron would report... so to Q2... it could be irrelevant.

3-again, the loaded firearm is relevant if he was a CCW holder or not. If he is then he can have a loaded concelaed firearm on his person in his vehicle... if not, then the arm and ammo must be separate. On foot??? Open carry, its quite legal. Maybe looked upon with distaste by city dwellers, but in CA last I checked open carry was allowed unless specifically prohibited by law... otherwise, I can't go hunting.

4- Apparently, the LEO taking over thought so, as the chaser wasn't cited. Which makes me think (1) this wasn't in SF but in a rural town, and (2) theres more to the story than the anti-gun author (for which the chron is noted) is telling you...