Armed Terrorist Assaults in the U.S.

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mbt2001 says: Supposing a Mumbai incident occurred, the worst possible outcome would be that a CHL / concerned citizen responded ineffectively, or worse, confused the situation. Escape and Evasion are the name of the game.
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I am constantly amazed at those who would rather run than fight back!!! And even more so by thier willingness to encourage others to do likewise.
 
And I am constantly amazed at those mere mortals who are possessed of a godlike omniscience, who can with a mere glance know for certain who is a terrorist/criminal; who are totally prepared without a moment of reflection or analysis to act as judge jury and executioner; whose aim is unerring, whose bullets never miss or overpenetrate and injure or kill innocents; whose tacticality is so supreme that they glow with a pure radiance that announces to all present (including skittish LEOS) that they are a Good Guy Among Good Guys and not part of the problem, to be shot to the ground along with the rest of the unidentified shooters.

Amazement is a good thing, I wish we had more of it.

lpl
 
Terrorists are still a threat. However, seeing a Mumbai success story in an American City of like size strains the imagination.
Yes, look at how innocuous the Beltway snipers were.

Why people hardly noticed them, and look at how the police quickly and efficiently dealt with them... :rolleyes:

I wonder how the Chicago PD would deal with FIVE of them, operating SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Jody Weis would probably announce that they were "inside" murders where the bullets somehow got "outside" and that the Chicago PD was powerless to do anything...

I remember going to see "Sherlock Holmes" at the Ford City movie complex last year and noting a correlation of large holiday crowds and the purely coincidental theft of multiple sets of police light bars. All it would take would be for "police" to show up at a large gathering of Blacks or Hispanics, shoot dozens of people while shouting ethnic slurs, then wait for the "real" police to show up. I'm sure by the time it was all done, the police would be shooting EACH OTHER and that's not counting the IEDs. Daley would of course blame it on the NRA. Chicago would collapse [more deeply] into [more] utter chaos.

Fake "cops" in fake uniforms are seemingly a given in terrorist operations in Iraq. But don't worry, nobody could get a Chicago PD uniform and pretend to be a Chicago cop... except the teenage boy who's done it several times, gaining access to police facilities on multiple occasions...
 
Terrorists are still a threat. However, seeing a Mumbai success story in an American City of like size strains the imagination.
Hmmmm... What I found inovative was how the Command and Control for the Mumbai terrorists simply watched the news (The equivilant of India's CNN) and communicated through cell phones giving them Intel. as the whole thing went down.
I can certainly see this working in favor of any terrorist cell here in the U.S., especially in one of our smaller "Big Cities" like Indianapolis, Memphis, El Paso etc. By the time it is figured out the worst is over.
 
America is just too big to attack if you're some lone psycho.

Sure, you can wreak havoc in a thousand ways, but you'll probably die in the attempt. The Unabomber Kaczynski is a case where a low level of terrorism was maintained while the perp remained relatively safe.

The other point is that we have always had terrorism. It is not new, it is not a recent phenomenon. We have always had terrorism. Always. Nothing new, nothing special. The SLA, the Red Brigades, Carlos the Jackal, and on and on.

And if you're some lone psycho, or a member of a small cell, what are you going to do? This country is too large - like China or Russia - there's really nothing a terrorist can do to harm us in any significant way. And even if we do harden the borders to a 100 percent level, we're still vulnerable to a VA Tech maniac, a Son of Sam.

So those of us with the inclination arm ourselves, obtain CCW permits, and maintain vigilance. What's the classic progressive mantra? Think globally, act locally.
 
Sure, you can wreak havoc in a thousand ways, but you'll probably die in the attempt.
Yeah, and we all know how loathe Islamist terrorists are to have THAT happen. To be willing to die in a terrorist attack, you'd have to believe that Allah would give you 72 virgins after you died...

I wonder what would happen if Islamist terrorists just followed the example of the Imperial Japanese Navy in Manila in 1945, surrounding themselves with civilian hostages while actively engaging the police, completely willing to die while inflicting as many civilian and security force casualties as possible.

But that would never happen... except in Beslan

Does the Chicago Police Department have flamethrowers? Would they be willing to use them... on terrorists AND hostages... live on CNN?
 
there's really nothing a terrorist can do to harm us in any significant way

I think a terrorist with some knowledge of our infrastructure could do some serious long lasting damage. It would not think it would be tough to replicate the gulf oil scenario deliberately. as part of my job I have been on site at many industrial facilities with little to no security, and huge stores of flammable and toxic materials on the outskirts of major cities. Our power grid comes to mind as a target. As well as a few other critical yet mainly unguarded areas.

Sorry for the vagueness, I am not giving any sicko ideas (as they read the web too), but I think there are many ways they could do some serious damage to us. What can we do? Really Shockwaves summary says it all:
obtain CCW permits, and maintain vigilance

Question those out of place in your own neighborhood. We have chased off many criminal folks from our area that way. In our office building, the exact same approach works. What their approach requires is citizens to pretend like they don't exist, to ignore them.
 
I believe that terrorists have so many operational options that we simply cannot be prepared for them all: especially since we don't know what they all are.

The argument that they could not do any significant, and long lasting, harm to us cannot be substantiated.

What you and I can do is be prepared to use the tools we have if and when needed. Maybe, just maybe, we can disrupt a plan enough that we save some lives or, better yet, thwart the entire operation.

Not every plan needs to be off-the-charts incredible to get our attention or to disrupt our daily lives.

Thanks,
DFW1911
 
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The argument that they could not do any significant, and long lasting, harm to us cannot be substantiated.
Like the Japanese in WWII, they cannot win. Like the Japanese in WWII, that won't stop them from killing a LOT of people to no rational end. For a lot of the Japanese and for a lot of them, that's an acceptable consolation prize.
 
The object here is not to quantify the level of damage necessary to define a successful attack. IMHO one person injured or killed as a result of a terrorist (or criminal) attack is too many.

Our object is to consider our own individual responses as armed citizens in the face of an active shooter situation, whether the motive of the shooter is terrorism or criminality. Let us stick to that, please.

lpl
 
IIRC, the Tyler TX civilian left cover to check on whether his shots were good. That was a mistake. Being a CHL instructor isn't really tatical training.

My comment on DC sniper and TX tower meant that we can generate our own terrorists using firearms.

As far as engaging vs. getting out of Dodge - that is a personal decision and dependent on circumstances. You may not have the option to flee. One needs to be prepared for that.

For charging into a Mumbai situation with a J frame - that's your decision. However, knowing how to use the J if Mumbai breaks around you - is a good thing.
 
IIRC, the Tyler TX civilian left cover to check on whether his shots were good.

You have a source for this gem of information? It doesn't match anything I have read.

Being a CHL instructor isn't really tatical training.

Nobody said it was.


My comment on DC sniper and TX tower meant that we can generate our own terrorists using firearms.
That is interesting given that neither the DC snipers or Charles Whitman were terrorists. Or maybe you have information that they were trying to promote some sort of social, political, or religious position by their efforts?
 
Whatever the true motive of John Allen Muhammd
A Virginia court found Muhammad guilty of killing "pursuant to the direction or order" of terrorism. The terrorism charge against Muhammad required prosecutors to prove he committed at least two shootings in a three-year period.
 
Nothing I've read about the Tyler, Texas shooting mentions cover. From what I've read, Wilson was not actually at the building, advanced towards the shooter's truck in order to effectively engage, and hit the shooter. He then attempted to confirm the shooter was down by moving around the front of the truck. While he may not have left a position of cover, he did take his eyes off the last known position of the threat, and that's what got him killed.

Still, I think Tyler, TX is a damn fine example of how an armed citizen can help stop a mass murder. After being confronted by Wilson, the shooter attempted to escape, which is one way to end a killing spree.
 
The DC snipers took advantage of the differing jurisdictions, and their rivalries. Until, of course, it became obvious that they weren't going to quit. Suddenly, co-operations was the name of the game, and the snipers were caught three days later. Now, again, the areas where they were operating make CCW impossible to have, and the Va, counties involved are just as bad. The people were virtually unarmed, and the snipers knew it.

Many SWAT Teams today have the operational authority to shut down cell phone towers. That wasn't happening in Mumbai. The idea is an old one, and has been used successfully.

Actually, bringing in a truck-load of machineguns, ammo, RPGs and their rockets, and grenades may be possible, but will require an infrastructurte beyond that of a small cell.

It's kind of interesting that we acknowledge that large scale operations are pretty much out of the question, but we allow the small cell the benefit of their infrastructure. Likewise, we hold the DC snipers as gleaming examples of terrorism, but they operated, once again, in areas where CCW was forbidden. They were mobile, to the point of having NO base, no rearming points, and no real impact on anything that any other criminal has. They kill as many people in D.C. in a week-end as the DC snipers did.

Were they even terrorists? Usually that is defined by the operation for a political ideology. The action must be to foment terror, and stir resentment against the government. Otherwise, every druggie in a drive-by is a "terrorist", as opposed to a criminal.

Carrying rifles is a wonderful idea, until you get stopped, or one of the less enthusiastic members of society see it. Then, who's the terrorist?

The fact that one is armed, at all, is much more important than what they are armed with. A .32 ACP in hand is going to go a lot further towards slowing down, or ending, such an attack, than a .500 S&W Magnum in the house, or in the car, while you're shopping.

The real places where such armament could, possibly, be helpful, is while away from population centers. There, you may well stumble upon a training camp, or a cell meeting. There, you will need some serious firepower.

In the city, who's going to be able to tell that you're one of the good guys? The SWAT sniper 100 yards away? The officer who rounds a corner, and finds you pointing a gun at him? The idea of CCW is NOT to aggressively hunt the perps. It's your job to find a defensible point, and hunker down, defending yourself from threats identified as just that. John McClain aside, none of us is capable of taking on a group of para-military terrorists, while miraculously avoiding getting blasted by the LEOs responding.

Do you need an M4 carbine to do that? Or, just perhaps, the pistol that you truly are able to carry?
 
Do you need an M4 carbine to do that? Or, just perhaps, the pistol that you truly are able to carry?
The minimum I choose to carry is a Glock 26, and it only occasionally. I refuse to depend on anything smaller unless due to legal reasons I'm restricted to knife, H2H or improvised weapons.

99% of the places I can go armed, I can (and do) carry my G19 and a G17+2 spare magazine.
 
Whatever the true motive of John Allen Muhammd

A Virginia court found Muhammad guilty of killing "pursuant to the direction or order" of terrorism. The terrorism charge against Muhammad required prosecutors to prove he committed at least two shootings in a three-year period.

The Department of Defense Dictionary of Military Terms defines terrorism as:

The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

So what goals were the DC snipers trying to force the government to accomplish?
 
I heard Chris Bird (concealed handgun book author) mention the cover issue in the Tyler case. As another poster mentioned, he went to 'check' on the guy and that was that. Obviously, he left cover or concealment to get into a position to be shot.

As far as whether the DC snipers, Texas Tyler shooter, Denver church shooter, two kids in that Arkansas school or other various rampage killers are 'terrorist', I leave those who OCD on meaningless pedantic issues when it comes to the actual situational outcome to debate.

If two young men shoot up the high school as they have personal issues with their classmates or they have been motivated by some political cause, isn't relevant to planning for the actual gunfight.

The term 'terror' was put into high prominence after 9/11 to justify a war against a clearly defined Islamic entity but GWB didn't want to actually state that (oil money!). Sorry to the mods if this last bit is political for a touch.

Anyway, look at the Fort Hood shooter - I was talking to an expert of Islamic terrorism but is also a tac trainer. Given I'm a psychologist - it was interesting. The guy looked like a combo of a workplace avengers and an Islamic motivated terrorist. You could read his actions as Avenger + Terrorist + A x T (a classic interaction model).

Thus, the terms are really mixed and you have to view each incident for the factors and try not to be absolutist in allocating behavioral causes.
 
The problem with armed terrorist assaults is not with the police, yes they are probably better equipped and trained to handle a Mumbai type attack. The problem here is political.

We can't even get politicians here to admit we're at war with extremist Islam, let alone prepare for it. Hell they're more interested in painting their political opponents as potential terrorists (conservatives, gun owners, Christians, vets, Tea Party folk) than they are in identifying and fighting the real threat.

At any rate the more of these things we see on American soil the more the grip government has on the throats of the American people tighten (and ironically the more dangerous the situation is made for us as our gun rights will be among the first to go). No crisis going to waste and all that.

Unless the terrorists want to turn America into a police state, I don't see Mumbai type armed attacks as being all that effective (but hell, maybe thats what they want ... easier to impose Sharia on a people already under someone else's boot ... all you have to do is get your feet in those boots). Of course the Islamists have shown themselves to not be great tacticians but they are good at making the news and frightening the populace (maybe thats all they care about).

I suspect WMD attacks on the US would be more effective if their goal is to bring about the collapse of the US government or just get the people to demand we pull 100% out of the middle east and leave Israel to the wolves.
 
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Gun based attacks will probably be loners or small groups, acting on their own with local motivations or inspired by some cause.

Look at the guy who tried to take on the El Al terminal in LA (IIRC ?), the guy who shot up the CIA entrance, the nut with the SKS shooting at the White House, the plane crasher at the White House - all individual folks who may be nuts but their pathology gets channeled by some cause.

We have school shooters who are clearly antifeminist - is that terrorism?

Actually, calling organized attacks from overseas as terrorists isn't useful. They are enemies of our state. Bush made a mistake going that way, IMHO.
 
If you are caught up in a 'sniper type' attack the ability to get to effective cover or get out of the fire/kill zone is going to be more important than the type of handgun you are carrying. A handgun isn't going to be very effective against someone a hundred yards away.
 
As far as whether the DC snipers, Texas Tyler shooter, Denver church shooter, two kids in that Arkansas school or other various rampage killers are 'terrorist', I leave those who OCD on meaningless pedantic issues when it comes to the actual situational outcome to debate.

If you are going to use specific terminology to describe actors, then obviously you don't think the terms are meaningless or pedantic.

If two young men shoot up the high school as they have personal issues with their classmates or they have been motivated by some political cause, isn't relevant to planning for the actual gunfight.

Thus, the terms are really mixed and you have to view each incident for the factors and try not to be absolutist in allocating behavioral causes.
The terms are really mixed when you don't use them correctly.
 
A handgun isn't going to be very effective against someone a hundred yards away.

Actually, a good shot with a handgun is more effective than you would think. You just need to actually shoot your handgun at distance to determine your hold over. Years ago, the III Corp AMU had their sniper trainees shoot at 200 yards with a 1911. The OIC told me that he could teach trajectory faster that way. Candidates were consistently able to keep a magazine of .45 ball on a sheet of plywood (4x8 feet) at that distance from rollover prone.

FWIW, if I have a shot at a bad guy running around shooting folks (leaving out the positive ID issues and remembering rule 4), I'll take it. I've plinked enough at 200y with a handgun to know that I can at least get his attention. :uhoh:
 
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