Army wants a harder-hitting pistol

Status
Not open for further replies.
No, I don't think I'm confusing it at all. Yes, the F-22 suffered from this, but the JSF is also in a struggling world of hurt for exactly the same issues.

I find it somewhat funny (or frightening) that the media has conditioned the public to assume that all pricey weapons systems in their development phase are "struggling" rather than simply being developed.

If they were perfect right out of the gate, there would be no need for a development phase at all, right?
 
Correct.

While some issues are to be expected, however, some should never have become an issue in the first place.

Regardless, they get worked out in a well developed system.
 
B1B? Osprey? USMC Marine One?.....

The high profile/high budget screw ups aren't just limited to US military small arms.
Research the B1B program. A fighter/bomber no one needed or wanted to fund(Congress/US military) but is still on the roster. :banghead:
Only 2/3 are in service but they still waste $$$ keeping the B1B flying.
The Osprey spec ops capable aircraft is a huge mess too. The US Navy & USMC spent millions & had a few fatal accidents trying to get these planes working.
The same goes for the Marine One(USMC) helicopter upgrade. :rolleyes:
After 09/11/2001, the DoD/USMC wanted to improve-modernize the helicopter fleet. New weapons, active counter-measures, improved communications, etc.
Somehow, :confused: , the Marine One aircraft shot up to $718,000,000.00 USD! And it wasn't even fielded or T&Eed yet.

$718mil for one helicopter? :rolleyes:

RS
 
No, I don't think I'm confusing it at all. Yes, the F-22 suffered from this, but the JSF is also in a struggling world of hurt for exactly the same issues.

Here's what you wrote:

"the Joint Strike Fighter program wasted huge bucks more because they never went into the production levels required to bring the costs down".


The truth is that the real production run has not even started yet. The F-22 suffered from a short production run, and no additional ones will be built. The F-22 is a program at it's end state for production and the JSF is a program that's not even gotten well started yet insofar as production numbers are concerned. Methinks you have the Raptor and the JSF confused.



Research the B1B program. A fighter/bomber no one needed or wanted to fundbut is still on the roster. Only 2/3 are in service

That's funny, I saw three of them on the flightline 100 yards from my jet this morning, and I'm not at an operational base. The Bone has been one of the stars of the desert, able to loiter for hours while targets are identified, and then dropping one surprise on a target and then being able to continue to loiter for hours more while more targets are identified. It's been a superstar long persistance strike airplane and nobody ever hears about it. That's good. Rockwell built an even hundred of them. Almost all of them are operational. They absolutely kick ass. And you most absolutely don't want one coming hunting for you in the middle of the night.


The Osprey spec ops capable aircraft is a huge mess too. The US Navy & USMC spent millions & had a few fatal accidents trying to get these planes working.

'Is"? As in "Now"? Uhh.... no. To start with, the Navy has never had any of them, it's been a USMC and USAF program from the start, mostly USMC though. It's a superb machine and has been at work daily without fanfare for about, oh... a decade. It's mishap rate is about the same as any other of our air vehicles. It's developmental mishaps were not really surprising, it being a completely new category of aerial vehicle. .


The same goes for the Marine One(USMC) helicopter upgrade.

Selection and development of a clean sheet of paper new design is not an "Upgrade", it's a "Development Program". I am friends with the flight test program manager for the Presidential Helicopter Program. The program was rightfully (in my humble opinion) cancelled after it became obvious that the requirements set forth by the end user was not compatable with the capabilities of the airframe. They correctly pulled the plug before they went much further than a half dozen flying test artiicles, none of which were more than prototypes derived from a commercial off the shelf design. Nobody in the DOD had much skin in that game, it was purely driven by the users, who frankly aren't really airplane folks.


Q: How well do you think the first dozen helicopters every built and flown did? (Hint: every one crashed in the end). Or the first dozen or so airplanes? (Hint: Wilbur and Orville crashed the Wright Flier the same day they made their first flight with it, and shipped it home in fragments).




I find it somewhat funny (or frightening) that the media has conditioned the public to assume that all pricey weapons systems in their development phase are "struggling" rather than simply being developed. If they were perfect right out of the gate, there would be no need for a development phase at all, right?

Precisely right. This is why folks like me flying odd things that are not yet fully proven are members of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. The key word is Experimental. Not everything works perfectly right off the drawing board. Bear in mind that the very first F-16 flight was UNINTENTIONAL. It took place on what was scheduled to be a simple high speed taxi profile. There was a software glitch and the flight control gains were bad. The test pilot for the profile ended up in the air without planning to be there, and (correctly) judged that the best place for the expensive yet barely controllable pointed-nose-EXPERIMENT was away from the dirt. He flew it away from that place, took a minute to get the feel for the beast, and brought it back. "Troubled Program"? Uhh... yeah. At that moment it was Since then it's only been the most successful fighter design ever made.


BTW Fishbed: I've got about 200 hours in the real FISHBED, what a sportscar... ;)
(as well as over 500 in the old FAGOT and another 200 in the absolutely wonderful FRESCO)


Willie

.
 
Last edited:
I find it somewhat funny (or frightening) that the media has conditioned the public to assume that all pricey weapons systems in their development phase are "struggling" rather than simply being developed.
I'm not old enough to have followed the F22 closely (and at least the end product appears to have been performing superlatively; if only there was a need deserving of its abilities), but the JSF program has been a boon of all doggles. We're going to a single engine craft over open water, which is bad enough, but we're also going to pretend the same basic airframe is good for a basic interceptor jet as well as a highly-specialized STOVL (short takeoff, vertical landing) configuration? Decades of development, billions of dollars, and millions of lobby bills later, we have two of the three variants working --overweight, over cost, and behind schedule-- the third half-working, with advice to operators to not use the STOVL features frequently because of higher than acceptable equipment failures which will all result in lost aircraft (oh, but they're "acceptable" now, since we told you not to use them often), and again, overweight, over cost, and behind schedule.

And, now they've grounded the fleet due to suspected engine component failures. We've seen that movie before, and it ends with us paying to design a whole new dang engine for the fleet, costing billions and leaving our air superiority at risk in the interim. Exactly how long do we really expect to keep F18's and F16's flying while we figure out our next move? KC tankers, too, for that matter (a whole 'nuther can 'o worms of the same variety, that)

The truth is that the real production run has not even started yet
And yet we've reduced our own orders for the things from well over a thousand to like a few hundred when I last looked into it (granted, that was before we stopped pretending the Sequester was real), and foreign nations have both scrapped their orders and not bought near as many as we'd hoped.

It's developmental mishaps were not really surprising, it being a completely new category of aerial vehicle.
More, they were unsurprising due to the very concept the Osprey was built upon; an aircraft you can't auto-rotate or glide into the ground, that requires two highly-sophisticated turbo-prop engines mounted on articulated armatures to stay aloft. I hear they're supposed to be trying a light gunship version at some point; good luck. A cool machine, to be sure, but suited to a very niche roll at the end of the day, considering it was billed as a replacement for light helicopters.

I have higher hopes for the heavy-lift concept Bell was working on, a quad-copter tilt rotor, since birds like Chinooks (usually) aren't sent into stupidly hostile and dangerous environments intentionally. Ospreys are fairly vulnerable if the baddies get there in time (which is admittedly hard since they hop around so fast --but that was the same justification for Huey's which got tons of people killed/injured when over used on an enemy who'd adjusted its tactics)

The same goes for the Marine One(USMC) helicopter upgrade.
I have no comment other than that it's one freakin' bird, and that we spend far too much on El Jefe already.

I know we're accustomed to military development projects tripling or more their initial budgets on average, but that is the definition of a program being "troubled" during development. Just because they're all FUBAR doesn't change the fact each one is a terrific waste. If it's not waste, let the DOD seek realistic budgets of 3-5X what they'd normally ask, and we'll see if that changes appropriations (if it does, that means the DOD are con-men; if it doesn't, it means the congress-critters are con-men)

And back on topic; no, the military doesn't really want a harder hitting pistol. They're just chumming the waters to keep manufacturers interested ;) (gun writers, too :D)

TCB
 
Last edited:
The Bones; B1A/B1B.....

I read over a few articles about the B1A/B1B program. The B1A did have many production & design problems. It came close to being shut down. 4 aircraft were built & used by the USAF.
The B1B is what was later upgraded & developed into the aircraft used today. As of 1998, approx 100 planes were in service. The B1B has been in use in SW Asia for several years. The USAF plans to field the B1B system until 2020/2030.

Rusty
 
They can't agree on adopting a significantly updated main battle rifle -- that front line troops actually use in large numbers to shoot the enemy -- but they'll dive into major improvements to the back-up sidearm carried by a few troops and used to actually shoot the enemy a mere handful of times each year? That makes sense. :rolleyes:

I don't see this going ANYWHERE.

The irony is that, somewhat UNlike (maybe) the situation with assault rifle development, the civilian shooting world is already miles and many decades ahead of the military in handgun development and training. They really don't need to develop anything or go to any great lengths to study anything. Just look around and see what's working the "bestest for the mostest", and place their order.
Sam,

This is nothing new. The military has looked to the Wildcatting world for over 100 years. I wonder what they might come up with.
 
I have no comment other than that it's one freakin' bird, and that we spend far too much on El Jefe already.


One? Surely you jest. Try 24 of them.

No President of the United States could *possibly* survive with only one helicopter for his use... ;)


"We're going to a single engine craft over open water, which is bad enough."

Next time you're watching "The Bridges at Toko Ri" you might note that the Navy operated Panthers off the boat in 1951. And that we now use the T-45 as our aboard-ship trainer and have done so for years, and that *every* F-16 that's ever gone overseas has flow there over a huge ocean.... and that the Jarheads have been flying Harriers off the boat for 40 years. So what's your point?



"but we're also going to pretend the same basic airframe is good for a basic interceptor jet as well as a highly-specialized STOVL (short takeoff, vertical landing) configuration? "

Nobody's pretending. Been around these at all yourself lately, or are you simply reading what you are selectively force-fed by the papers?


What's funny to me is that the same sort of "reading the boased papers and then making an opinion based on that half-information" that is used by Anti-Gunners after reading, say... USA Today, is the level of public opinions on subjects aerospace that I am seeing here. Half informed partially informed opinions that anyone with any indepth knowlage of the subject xsees and just wants to shout out "that's just plain wrong" Think about that in the context of hpw your neighbor views firearms and you might understand. The strength of the opinion you hold is in no way supported by the facts of the matter.



Willie

.
 
Last edited:
What an interesting, but completely off-topic discussion this has turned into!

I greatly encourage all parties to continue discussing the matter -- via PM.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top