• You are using the old Black Responsive theme. We have installed a new dark theme for you, called UI.X. This will work better with the new upgrade of our software. You can select it at the bottom of any page.

Arrest for Florida Open Carry in Vehicle

Status
Not open for further replies.
N

numaone

Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
114
Location
North Carolina
Came across this article today and wanted to share.

Chris Johnson Reportedly Arrested: Latest Details, Updates and More

Link to story

Summary is he was stopped for rolling through a stop sign. He consented to a search, and the found firearm under a bag under the seat. He DOES has a valid concealed carry permit, according to the article.

He was charged under:
790.053 Open carrying of weapons, which states
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.

(2) A person may openly carry, for purposes of lawful self-defense:
(a) A self-defense chemical spray.
(b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.
(3) Any person violating this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
Click to expand...

Couple questions,
How was it open carry if it wasn't plainly visible, under a backpack under the seat?
He has a concealed carry permit, so if it was anywhere on him not visible, would it not have been a crime?
Even without a permit, if it was in the backpack under the seat, would it have been legal since it was "securely encased?" (790.25(5))

Being a Florida resident, and talking to several officers, they have indicated to me that they generally don't care how a permit holder stores a handgun, but obviously that doesn't seem to be the case with Mr. Johnson. Can't quite understand how it's not legal for a permit holder to not have a firearm under a seat - however dumb that may be.

Does the case hold water?

Numaone
 
I lived in Central FL for 40 years and can tell you there are officers that error on the side of what they think the law should be instead of what it is. They let the court sort it out. They may have received a negative answer to are there weapons and been upset when they found one. Most LEOs are very supportive of CCW but not real happy about not being told the whole story. I think he will be fine and the judge will throw it out.
 
Deserved made up charges for consenting to a search. Why do people do it?
 
Orlando PD arrest, guns.....

I also saw this recent news item.
I was unaware that Johnson had a valid W/CCW license. :uhoh:
To my knowledge, all handguns must be "encased" in a holster, gun case, console, luggage, etc. Other THRers even said a pizza pox would be street legal in the sunshine state. :D
Florida also has new revised versions of FS790 that state a W/CCW license holder can have limited open carry. This means if the wind or a breeze blows your jacket open or you remove your shirt/vest & your firearm is briefly exposed then a sworn LE officer can't arrest you or file any formal charges.
This revision is based partly on a documented incident with a patrol deputy & a armed citizen/W license holder who had a traffic stop. The cop went ballistic on the driver & got upset over an exposed, holstered firearm. This was in Citrus County FL. The traffic stop video is on Youtube.com .
It sounds to me like Johnson's lawyer could make a valid case saying his client had a valid W license & the gun was briefly in the open.
More than likely, he'll plea out & get the charge cut.
FWIW: Florida law enforcement officers were given in service training & updates on FS790(concealed carry) & FS493(armed security & recovery) but that was ended due to state budget cuts in 2009. :mad:
New sworn officers or troopers in Florida now do not get any briefings or details about the changes to CCW or gun laws.
 
Myorangeclerk.com .....

Anyone that wants to check this arrest/court action(s) can see updates on www.myorangeclerk.com . The arrest/police reports should be available with the PD: www.CityofOrlando.net .
Florida has fairly open public records and "sunshine laws" :D .
Most jail and court records are available for public review.

I agree, this arrest seems wonky & more than likely the State Atty; Jeff Ashton or the Orlando City Prosecutor will drop the stupid charges.
 
The law.....

From what has been reported; the loaded firearm was under a book bag and some other items near Johnson's feet. The Orlando PD officer had to search for it. :rolleyes:
You can't say that's "plain view" or "open".
The NFL player should have a gun case or holster but it's not like the gun was laying on the seat or a serious threat to the officer during the stop.
 
I've seen many a bad arrest during the years I was a cop here in Florida (and I'm sure you could say the same thing for every other state). After my first five years as a patrolman I made sergeant (and years later, lieutenant) -and from then on it was me or another supervisor that had to review and sign off on each and every arrest that any patrolman made during the shift. The problem with any public version of what happened is that most newspaper stories (and TV is even worse...) is that they rarely ever get ANYTHING right in their reporting. Because of that I can only go on what we've heard about this -and based on that there is no way I'd have ever signed off on that arrest....

When an officer does something out of line it's the responsibility of his/her supervisor to catch it and sort it out, period. On more than one occasion I've had to tell one of my crew to "un-arrest" someone (and when I was a patrolman it happened to me as well...). There might have been some other circumstances we don't know about that led to the arrest but as given it shouldn't take any great work to get the charge dismissed, in my opinion.

As a former supervisor here's the routine that occurred after something like this... You sat the officer down somewhere (maybe even a "coffee spot") and went over why the arrest wasn't a good one. I'd do my best to make sure the officer had the correct knowledge about the particular statute involved and informally counsel a better course of action (there might be some other charge if "the guy just had to go..."). And of course if something like this happened a second time then it gets written up with a recommendation for re-training or discipline -if that was warranted...

In the "bad old days" down here in Dade county (Miami for all you out of state types) the volume of street crime and the many different departments (there were 27 different police departments in Dade county when I signed on back in 1975 - there are more than that now....) involved, bad arrests happened all the time. I even saw cases where an officer would make a bad arrest and deliberately not even show up to court so the case would be dismissed without even the judge looking at the facts of the case... No, I don't miss those days at all....

Depending on where you are and what the circumstances are at the time you might find yourself in a situation where an officer does something improper. That's why there are courts and lawyers and everything else in place to make sure an individual is treated fairly. Lots more about this sort of stuff but I'd need an adult beverage and it wouldn't be on a public forum....
 
. . . bad arrests happened all the time. I even saw cases where an officer would make a bad arrest and deliberately not even show up to court so the case would be dismissed without even the judge looking at the facts of the case...
Depending on where you are and what the circumstances are at the time you might find yourself in a situation where an officer does something improper. That's why there are courts and lawyers and everything else in place to make sure an individual is treated fairly...
Click to expand...
And unless the officer's improper actions are caught on tape, or are SO excessive that they can't be swept under the rug . . . he will seldom suffer appropriately proportionate negative consequences. :(
 
Bogus charges and Bogus arrest. Fine example of why every profession has those that don't represent it well. Whatever the reason, the Officer had no rights under the law to do this. It is a blatant disregard for the law and an abuse of power. We are talking about someones freedom here. Not a speeding ticket. God Bless
 
Hank, on a decent department mistakes -when found- get corrected. Yes, we're talking about human interactions and fairness and correct behavior is an ideal seldom realized (whether we're talking police, law, or an ordinary sporting event -and all points in between.). The Department I worked for was a case in point.

When I was hired it was the kind of place where you could get a job after a decent department with a good reputation had fired you... I knew nothing of that, didn't have a clue what I was getting involved in at all. In short I was absolutely clueless since I hadn't grown up in south Florida and only came there after a stint in the Army. Every sin imaginable, misconduct short of murder, supervisors that were never around... In short every young cop was making it up as he/she went along and any learning was from older cops who were anything but role models...

All of that turned around after a change of police chief or two. Ten years later we were really squared away, handled all our own investigations and were well on the way to becoming the first nationally accredited police department in Dade county (and all of this was right smack in the middle of the cocaine wars and all the other things that were happening back then...). We put in place a solid training program for new officers (whether fresh from the academy or experienced guys from somewhere else that were being brought on board) and that was only one of many reforms. Our officers were allowed to have real input into every level of decision making from things as minor as uniforms and gear to writing policy for specialty units. Any bad apples or officers that just couldn't do the job fell by the wayside. Our screening process for job candidates was peer reviewed by young and older officers that were doing the job daily....Many of our senior officers began teaching after hours at the local police academy, in short the place became a good example to other department's young officers (in this area every agency sends it's recruits to the same class and you might have five or six different outfits in the same academy class) and we began attracting better and better current officers and candidates. Years later many of them went on to become chief's of police at other agencies... At one time I knew six chiefs up and down the state who I'd worked with on our small, 100 man department that went on to other agencies. Some are still there...

If an agency is properly run mistakes and bad conduct are identified and corrected. Unfortunately most of the decision making for large and small agencies is done for other reasons entirely so it's a crap shoot. Anyone can and should have input into how their local cops perform... If your department doesn't behave well, try to identify any community leaders that are trying to do good things and support them. Chiefs of police come and go (the figure I've alway heard quoted is that the average tenure nationwide is barely two years..). A good man or woman at the top can have a dramatic effect on how any police agency functions day to day. I'll quit here since I'm getting far off topic, but if your local department isn't working properly or doesn't listen to valid complaints you can do something about it....
 
WV Mountaineer said:
...Whatever the reason, the Officer had no rights under the law to do this. It is a blatant disregard for the law and an abuse of power....
Click to expand...
That is not accurate.

According to all the information we now have, Johnson failed to stop at a stop sign. That is an infraction, and the officer was completely within his rights to stop Johnson.

According to one report, the officer asked if he could search the car. The officer has every right to ask, and Johnson did not have to consent.

The issue is whether the gun was not in plain sight (which would not support a charge of openly carrying a gun) or the gun (or enough of the gun to be recognizable as such) was in plain sight (which would support a charge of violation Florida law prohibiting the open carrying of a gun). There appears to be a dispute on that point, and that will need to be worked out through the legal process.
 
Post #15.....

I agree with part of #15 that it needs to work thru the Florida(9th Circuit) court system. Id add that Johnson is innocent until proven guilty if he chooses to pled not guilty to this charge. ;)
As I posted, since he's a NFL player, an upstanding member of the community(society) & has a valid Florida/W carry license, Id say the prosecutor(s) may just take the traffic infraction(failure to stop at a posted stop sign) then drop the BS gun charge.

In 2012, I was arrested by 2 Orlando PD officers on bogus charges. I pled not guilty and asked to speak directly to the Florida State Atty(a former county sheriff & decorated US Army combat veteran). All my charges were cut and the case was closed. ;)
I later went to the Orlando PD's internal affairs unit and explained my side of the events. The IA investigators agreed with me & did not dispute my account.

Rusty
 
so Florida will give you an Concealed carry permit but you can't open carry , even in your Mobil Cassel (car) !? good to know , as we here in WI can open carry in a car with or with out a CCW card , I hope some law makers see this and FIX this I wonder how many other states have this ? my own rule is when out of state , gun go in trunk unloaded and cased , and reading this law it is not real clear what is concealed and what is not , what if he had on a shoulder rig and his coat unzipped ? so it is concealed when standing but not so when he sits in the car , , bad arrest ? maybe. bad law ? yep!
 
Bad law....

It is a bad law.
Florida needs a formal open carry statue but the county sheriffs & FoP fight hard against it. :mad:
They want to gripe & moan about tourists and training standards. They want citizens to rely on them for safety & personal security. :rolleyes:
God forbid, a citizen with no criminal record or problems would dare own a gun to protect themselves.
Oh & they also complain about how response times run 30-45min :eek: & they can't buy new vehicles or update equipment because they have no $$$.
 
First I do not know any of the details of the arrest or what happened but there is a violation of transporting a weapon a private conveyance.

From what I read here on this post it has nothing to do with concealed or open carry.

You do not need a permit to transport a weapon in your own car. The weapon needs to be securely encased. That means in a glove box or center console or if it was in a holster or a gun rug with a strap it could be left on the seat.

If this person just left a gun sitting out on the seat or under a backpack then that is a violation. If it was IN the backpack it would be fine even if he had no permit.

Without all the facts who really knows??
 
I don't know what Chris Johnson was doing, but it is so simple to comply with the statute that it is hard to complain about violating it. The gun just has to be in any case with a lid, or a snap holster. If you have an unholstered/unboxed pistol rolling around on the floor of your car while driving(and you get pulled over) - you shouldn't be upset that somebody expects you to answer for it.

Fla. Stat. 790.25:

(3) LAWFUL USES.--The provisions of ss. 790.053 and 790.06 do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes: ...

(l) A person traveling by private conveyance when the weapon is securely encased or in a public conveyance when the weapon is securely encased and not in the person's manual possession;
Click to expand...

Fla. Stat. 790.001:

17) "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.
Click to expand...

Put the gun in the glove box(or a snap holster), and there is no problem.
 
Put the gun in the glove box(or a snap holster), and there is no problem.
Click to expand...

What is the securely encased container allows the gun to be visible? For example, it's in a snap holster on the seat next to you? It securely encased, but also plainly visible.

IMO, it's a stupid hole in the law. Had it been a long gun, it would have been no issue to be plainly visible in the vehicle. If the gun had been un-holstered under his shirt, it would have been legal.
 
Sebastian the Ibis said:
I don't know what Chris Johnson was doing, but it is so simple to comply with the statute that it is hard to complain about violating it. The gun just has to be in any case with a lid, or a snap holster....
Click to expand...
Doesn't that exception to 790.25 apply only to someone without a recognized concealed weapons permit? See 790.25(5), emphasis added:
...(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons,...
Click to expand...
 
Search....

I'm no JD or Ben Matlock but if the Orlando PD officer asked to search the motor vehicle then he obviously did not see or view the firearm. :rolleyes:
It sounds to me like Johnson was compliant and respectful to the patrol officer.
It would be worth it to view a DV or bodycam video of the entire stop but I doubt the PD has it. :rolleyes:
The Orlando Florida PD has around 800 sworn patrol div officers. The PD & Chief(John Mina) recently stated they only deployed approx 50 DV camera systems.
 
Frank Ettin wrote:

"Doesn't that exception to 790.25 apply only to someone without a recognized concealed weapons permit? See 790.25(5), emphasis added:"


The answer is "yes", and the obvious defense against "posession unconcealed" within a vehicle is that the vehicle itself provided concealment for a firearm posessed by a CCW holder. It being the apparent case that the only argument against the individual charged is that his firearm was not concealed , which is a violation of statute.


I'd be pretty confident of myself were I being charged like this, and would view it as an opportunity to politely educate the local police. By service of a lawsuit after the charges were dismissed.



Willie

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

N
  • Locked
Open Carry in Florida while Hiking/Camping
Replies
2
Views
2K
Mainsail
Mainsail
L
  • Locked
Anomalous Open Carry
Replies
18
Views
4K
Oro
O
E
  • Locked
Q re Fla. Vehicle Carry
Replies
3
Views
590
starfuryzeta
S
R
  • Locked
Mississippi Attorney General on Open Carry
Replies
17
Views
2K
45crittergitter
4
L
  • Locked
ND "Home Rules"
Replies
2
Views
776
Leverb66
L
Back
Top