As a follow up to the CZ deer thread...

[rhoggman]

There are a few counties in Virginia that have a fire arms season starting Oct 1. Any handgun is considered a rifle. You are allowed to kill with a rifle in a caliber larger than .243.

Button Bucks are perfectly legal. They are considered antlerless deer in the state of Virginia. I'm pretty sure 4 of the 6 tags you are afforded are "antlerless" tags.

Sorry for all you people who are too moral to kill a button buck. I guess if you hunted for "sport" it would be pointless, but I'm really in it for the meat. To be honest yearlings taste great. Very tender meat. I wonder if the same people cry over lamb, and veal????? I believe the grand total in my club this year is 4 yearlings among the other deer killed. I really wouldn't mind filling all four of my antlerless tags with yearlings. Would not bother me a single bit. If the state of virginia says it is ok why should I be castigated by a throng of do-gooders who must have infinitely more knowledge about managing deer than the state of VA does, right???

In most places besides state/ national forests anything (deer) you see is legal as long as you have the proper tag available.

I have found a great group of guys whom I hunt with covering all ages, and I would challenge anyone on their righteous cloud to "kick them out of the campfire"..... How ridiculous!

Once again, what is right for your property, or your lease is one thing, but it is not for all places. Your deer management techniques don't apply everywhere. Obviously deer are very plentiful in Virginia, and I am grateful that it is legal to kill does, and fawns; however, I hunt in the state forest as well, and there unless you are hunting on specific Saturdays, or during bow and black powder, you can only kill bucks.

Somebody please drive to Lake Anna State Park and tell me how the deer management is going there. The deer are over populated and emaciated beyond belief. If only they would have a real hunting season there then maybe the deer would not be coming out of every nook and cranny and look like Ethiopians.

Chesapeake and Virginia Beach did not have an open deer season last year. Funny how that worked out, because this year they started firearms season on 1 October.... Why, well deer populations can double in a single season if not kept in check. All it takes is one year, and many subsequent of over population to cause a lot of problems.

One more thing to add.... how many of you all tan hides? Maybe I should ride in on my magic carpet and complain how wasteful you all are, and how you dishonor the forest by wasting good leather. I won't do that though... it is up to you. I look in the mirror just fine.

 

[scythefwd]

rhoggman - what caliber is your CZ (9mm luger?) and what is the muzzle energy of your ammo according to the manufacturer website (you mentioned Hornady Critical Defense)? Besides the round needing to be above a .23 caliber, it also must have a muzzle energy of more than or equal to 350 to be legal. Actually, 3 of 6 deer tags are antlerless on the big game license. You can purchase others though, so I can't say anything bout that in all actuality.

During blackpowder season this year only Nov. 7th was an either sex day on department owned lands. It almost got me but I went and double checked before I went out. My beef isn't about the age of the deer, it was about what arm you used to take it with. The ammo you mentioned was not legal (Hornady critical defense, which only comes in 9mm and has a muzzle energy of 332). 50 lbs is small, but as long as there aren't any spots it is legal.

I suspect most of the people who were objecting were objecting to the arm you used (and questioned whether or not it was legal to use said arm). If you were in one of the 2.5 counties that were having rifle season, then fair game as long as the ammo used was in compliance with the regulations...

My only question is this.. why use a BP rifle where a centerfire rifle is authorized (the only place you can use a handgun is where a centerfire rifle is allowed, shotguns aren't included)? If the concern was making multiple shots, the BP rifle is inferior in every way. I use one because I hunt Caroline County, which prohibits anything but shotguns and I like the extra accuracy/range that my BP rifle gives me. When I hunt Spotsylvania or Orange county, I use a centerfire rifle so I do have the option of a follow up shot.

 

[rhoggman]

So I guess the 9mm ammo was 18ft/lbs of energy shy. I will see about getting some stiffer ammo for my 9mm, or make sure from now on my sidearm is a .357 or .44 Mag.

I did say 50lbs dressed out.... I doubt you will find any deer in the forests with spots right now.

It is legal to use BP, and 9mm is also legal where there is a rifle season, but the energy may have been a little off. Do you know what size barrel Hornaday tested with? Wonder how much of difference that would make?

I actually like my BP rifle. For some reason it is just a natural fit for me. I have real good luck with it as well.

3 antlerless only tags, 2 either sex, and one either sex east of the blueridge... so pretty much all the tags are good for whatever.

 

[scythefwd]

rhoggman - I'm not sure if you'll be able to find 9mm ammo much stronger. Maybe look at buffalo bore or corbon. In general, many people consider the 9mm a bit on the light side to hunt with, which is the reason for the 350 ME requirement.

We appear to interpret the regs a bit differently. I interpret the regs. to say that 9mm is legal where there is a rifle season when rifle season is in play. BP can be used every season but bow, but I don't see much sense in it IF I can get away with better equipment. I like my BP rifle as well, and use it instead of my shotgun when I am in Caroline because it is more accurate. I'll have to write the DGIF office and see how they interpret the regs about when handguns are legal.

 

[rhoggman]

Handguns are legal when rifle season is in.

 

[Fremmer]

One more thing to add.... how many of you all tan hides? Maybe I should ride in on my magic carpet and complain how wasteful you all are, and how you dishonor the forest by wasting good leather. I won't do that though... it is up to you. I look in the mirror just fine.

Geeze, settle down, Francis!
Some of us use hides, others don't. Not everyone wants a hide, and often it is left to the processor, anyway. Judge not ye about button bucks nor hides, right?

By the way, you can donate hides to the Elks. They make gloves out of the hides, and then donate the gloves to disabled veterans in wheel chairs. Let your processor know about that, they can probably call a local lodge for more details. It really helps disabled veterans!

 

[kanook]

A simple little (legal) would have saved a ton of confusion. When most (not all) people hunt during modern/general they don't use a muzzleloader. This is where the confusion started.

I also hunt in an area where a centerfire rifle is not permitted but a ML rifle and modern handgun is.

And again You will be cutting you steak with a fork while the rest willl be using a knife.

 

[rhoggman]

And again You will be cutting you steak with a fork while the rest willl be using a knife.

Indeed... this is the key point. I was just very dissapointed about the level of ridicule I recieved. People tried to make me out to be some unethical/ evil hunter.... I'll go get some BB ammo, and shoot the next yearling I see as well.

Rifle season is in full swing state wide, so this will work for me where I am hunting this weekend as well

 

[Arkansas Paul]

While I won't shoot a button buck, I have no stones to throw if others decide to, if it's in line with state game and fish laws and lease rules. It's just that here in Arkansas there are plenty of deer and you can take a good two or three year old doe fairly easily. I choose to let the button bucks go. Maybe he'll come back in a couple of years. Of course part of why we try not to shoot them here is because it doesn't count as an antlerless deer. You kill a button buck and you have to tag it with a buck tag. That being said, if the freezer was empty and I see a button buck during the last weekend of the season, well I might just go ahead and drop the hammer. As long as it's within the rules, it's a personal choice. Who cares what anybody else thinks about it.

 

[cz85cmbt]

to sythefwd, the hornady critical defense is a low recoil round for concealed carry short barrels. Non +p rounds will get you to about 400 foot pounds although most are closer to 370 and +p rounds will take you to low 400's like 430. With a good bullet and good placement that is plenty to take a small deer. Just hope its close with a combat handguns sight radius. Sorry had to back up the 9mm. And to rhoggman I completely agree except that you implied the state knew what it was doing in managing the deer herd I don't think any state government is good at managing anything.

 

[scythefwd]

cz85cmbt - the only problem is that the regulations state that the manufacturer has to rate the ammo above 350 - which hornady doesn't. They rate it as 332. I didn't say it wasn't good enough, I said it wasn't legal. He gets a more potent round and I will never say anything else about it. Keep using the same round and I'll say something every time because it gives people one more thing to use against hunters because the round used isn't legal.

 

[Fryerpower]

Getting above 350 Foot Pounds in 9mm

Here is a list of the performance of various rounds:
http://www.shootingresources.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=42&Itemid=39

370 foot pounds
http://www.shootingresources.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=64&Itemid=39

483 foot pounds
http://www.shootingresources.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=42&Itemid=39

They are out there.

-Jim

 

[scythefwd]

not saying they aren't, just saying that one wasn't. I suggested that hey look into a different round if you look at what I have said in this thread.

 

[Fryerpower]

Hey scythefwd, I understood what you were saying.

I was curious if there were rounds that could do it. Since I found them, I just wanted to make it easy people to find some rounds that meet Virginia's 350 Foot Pound requirement.

-Jim

 

[wankerjake]

I gotta say I thought you were overly flamed for your post as well. Never understood the hunters who will only shoot the biggest buck in the woods. I'm not too good to shoot animals for meat.

 

[rhoggman]

I also found a Buffalo Bore round rated for 450 ft/lbs.

Thanks for the links guys!

I gotta say I thought you were overly flamed for your post as well. Never understood the hunters who will only shoot the biggest buck in the woods.

Especially when people intentially do something illeagal, post about it, and are encouraged by other members to do so without a negative peep. I read a thread not too long ago about a guy who could not get permits from the city to kill deer (on his own property). A number of people started suggesting that he use a bow to kill them because no one would know.

I guess a lot of people have a problem with killing young deer. It is an ethical thing in certain circles. Personally I'm not sure how killing any deer with a firearm is more "moral" than killing another.

I eat everything I kill. My family eats with me. My friends are also given great meals when they come over. As far as I am concerned all deer are delicious.

Sometimes I think people take themselves way too seriously. They develop a set of standards that do not follow a logical contruct and then judge others by the ability or need to follow that construct.

If my goal is to eat delicious meat, and young deer taste better than old deer in my opinion; then when killing deer for the purpose of food I should kill young deer in order to cater to my preferences.