assaulted by mob.... no good solutions

[SSN Vet]

Here's a sneak peak at what I believe is our "new world order"

I'm sure twitter was likely used to gather the mob of teens quickly.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/12/29/iraq-war-veteran-wife-assaulted-outside-florida-theater-teen-mob/

Over 100 little savages.... reminds me of some of the beating deaths in the "hood" that have occurred in Chicago and Wisconsin in recent years.

As has been pointed out quite clearly in several recent threads... expecting teen agers gathered in a group and engaging in bad behavior to have any sense of civility and decency is a serious mistake.

You can wind up with your head kicked in a heartbeat.

Kind of makes you reconsider all those threads debating the merits of having extra magazines on board.

If left to your own devices and nobody comes to your aide, I only have one idea for a defensive tactic that could possibly work in such a scenario, but it would likely land your but in jail (at the hands of those who always "think of the children") and still may not protect your companions (wife/kids).

Just plain ugly....

 

[W.E.G.]

No excuse for the young thugs' actions.
Hope they rot in jail.

Poor "tactic and strategy" on the part of the victim.

Victim should have left quietly before the situation escalated. He could already see he was outnumbered. I have never understood why people get into it with troublemakers at a movie theater (or any other venue), and then stick around while the troublemakers hatch a plan to cause even bigger trouble.

Remove yourself from a hostile situation at the first opportunity.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Freire said one bystander stepped forward and told the couple to follow him to his car, saying he could scare the crowd off with a gun. But before the two reached the man's vehicle, one of the teenagers said, "I'm going to knock your wife out," before punching Freire's wife to the ground, the couple said.

CARRY ON YOUR PERSON!!!!!

 

[SSN Vet]

[Moderator edit of a deleted quote. Sorry]

Did you read the story... they punched his wife and knocked her to the ground...

The guy was surrounded by at least 100 taunting teens, apparently bent on seeing someones a$$ getting kicked (with half of them filming on their cell phones with hopes of posting a viral You-tube video).

This guy and his wife are very lucky to be alive.

I do think, however, that the suggestion above needs to be modied to read... "leaders of the assault".

 

[SSN Vet]

your pepper spray may disable one or two, but it is sure to enrage the rest....

no fear will remain when your squirt gun is empty.

 

[highorder]

Surprised by your comment, perhaps I should qualify my post.

When already under physical attack from a mob with the means and opportunity to inflict serious injury, taking action against anyone who incites escalated violence seems prudent to attempt to stop the attack.

I hope that stating an opinion, however ill advised, does not result in censure. S&T is the place to discuss ideas, and have ill advised ones cleared up with experience and examples of case law.

 

[TexasRifleman]

When already under physical attack from a mob with the means and opportunity to inflict serious injury, taking action against anyone who incites escalated violence seems prudent to attempt to stop the attack.

But probably illegal, if that matters to you. Unless the attack has already begun it's going to be very difficult to claim self defense unfortunately.

The fact is that taking action against someone verbally inciting violence is not self defense, it's an unprovoked attack. That moves one from "victim" to "perpetrator" fairly quickly and in fact could very well give the mob legal coverage for a counter attack claiming self defense of one of their own.

Works well in movies but in real life it seems a poor choice.

 

[SSN Vet]

taking action against anyone who incites escalated violence seems prudent

My BIL, a state trooper, has had a similar situation when called to assist a sherrif deputy at a gravel pit kegger with some hundred teens.

They would not disperse and were taunting the deputy, who was visibly shaken when my BIL arrived.

Now this is the authority of the law.... and the teens were not impressed.

My BIL is a really big boy.... and he went straight to the center of the party where the bon fire and kegs were and picks up a keg and announces, "this is mine".

Then the "bad a$$" of the group stepped up to challenge him... "you can't .... wa... wa...wa...."

BIL drops keg and throws Mr. Bad ass to the ground, face down and puts his boot on his back and points his finger at the crowd, making his second announcement "who's next?"

The deputy cuffs the loud mouth and the crowd scatters...

No shots fired, but then again, you had two armed LEOs with all the authority of the state on their side..... and "cutting off the head" of the instigators, so to speak, was the tactic that they employed.

 

[highorder]

Leader, as in "leader of the attack", meaning a person actively engaged in physical assault, is what I meant to say. My apologies.

Frankly, trying to reason with the mob in the theater was a poor choice. Leaving with or without a refund would have been a better idea.

 

[SSN Vet]

But probably illegal, if that matters to you. Unless the attack has already begun

did you read the article? they punched his wife and knocked her to the ground...

the attack was well under way.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Unfortunately there isn't a good choice, if you stand your ground, you may win the verbal judo, but most likely being out numbered the moment the 'inciter' realizes they are loosing the verbal judo, they will attack.

 

[TexasRifleman]

did you read the article? they punched his wife and knocked her to the ground...

I understand but you have to be very careful in a mob situation to use force against the right person, if you decide to use it at all. It's entirely possible the guy screaming and yelling in your face the loudest never touched you.

Teenagers, which as mentioned can mean "children" to some nitwits. Remember, the antis count as "children" anyone under the age of 20 even, to prop up their statistics of "children" harmed by firearms.

That's why this is pretty much a no win, which is in line I think with the OP's title "no good solutions".

 

[mbt2001]

Rifleman makes a point...

There are no good solutions. "Children" are a protected class, even if they are 19 with 2 murder charges...

 

[Bubbles]

Teens: Fight Not Our Fault

Yeah... had I been an instigator in such an altercation at that age, my parents would have taken a belt to my derriere... and I could have heated my own bathwater for the next month!

 

[easyg]

IMO several mistakes were made here....

But a group of teenagers had other plans for Federico and Kalyn Freire, who were assaulted outside a Florida movie theater after asking the teens to be quiet during a movie on Christmas Day.

First, don't go and try to watch a movie where there are lots of teenagers in attendance.
I promise you, it will only lead to frustration and anger and $20.00 dollars down the toilet.

Freire, a Florida native stationed at Camp Pendelton in California, said he and his wife asked a group of "obnoxiously loud" teenagers talking on cell phones to "be quiet" during the 8:20 p.m. movie.

Unless they are your teenage children, then at best you are wasting your time telling them to be quiet, and at worse you are simply asking for trouble (if not from the teens themselves but perhaps from the parents as well).
Not to mention that the movie experience has already been ruined at this point.

Freire said that when the disturbance escalated and the group began cursing, his wife called the manager, who asked several of the teenagers to leave the theater.

Again, the movie experience has already been ruined at this point.
How can anyone actually enjoy a movie if they have to get up and go find the manager and then have the manager come and kick some kids out.
Even if no other incidents had occurred, they simply were NOT going to be able to enjoy the movie.
All they would be able to do is to sit in their seat, not enjoying the movie, and just stew in anger over those damned kids.

A better course of action would be to both walk out and go find the manager and request a refund or a ticket to another showing.
Explaining to the manager that the experience had already been ruined by the obnoxious teens with their foul language and cell phone use.

 

[au01st]

Why I love one particular movie theater in my parent's home town: they will put an usher in each theater during the movie whose sole job is to watch the audience. If they see glowing from a phone *during the movie* (not previews or beforehand) they'll come pull you out of the audience and you get to leave without refund.

I can safely say that if I found myself in above situation, I would do whatever it takes to protect my girl.

 

[uspJ]

easyg pretty much said it all. You really have no win when your trying to argue with other peoples kids. If the kids are allready exhibiting signs of being trouble makers then you trying to discipline them is only going to go downhill from there.

IMHO when the couple left the theatre and saw the group waiting for them they should have went back inside or been ready to run. Trying to wade through an allready hostile group makes little sense to me.

 

[Zoogster]

Teenagers, which as mentioned can mean "children" to some nitwits. Remember, the antis count as "children" anyone under the age of 20 even, to prop up their statistics of "children" harmed by firearms.

Actually I have seen many articles and statistics that count anyone still of typical school age as children, "school" including college and universities.
A "child" can easily be in their early 20s, and be a "kid" or "young kids" in an article. A group of 18-22 year old individuals out partying and causing trouble would be considered "kids" for many articles and statistics.





Self defense in real mob situations is a lot more difficult than with clear crossed lines.
A mob may be a lot of people yet to participate in any attack, some of which may work up the "courage" to participate in an attack, but that if force is used against prior could result in serious charges.
The guy yelling to "kick them in the head" while your loved one is on the ground may be increasing the danger and escalating the violence, but harming them would be unlikely to hold up in court as self defense. Even if they are verbally encouraging things likely to result in death or serious injury.

It is a lot like the kids that used to say "ooooh" or something similar if someone was told something that was insulting or could be interpreted as offensive in order to increase the animosity of the situation and encourage a potential fight.
Many fights and attacks would never happen if not for the instigators on the side making comments to intentionally increase hostilities between others. Yet attacking the instigator is not going to be considered self defense in court.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

A good strategy... you see large groups of "urban" kids gathered... stay away... don't engage... go away from bus routes for movies and shopping. if you cant do that, wait for netflix, shop on amazon...

I'm from Buffalo, NY originally... there are neighborhoods(there) now I will not go in now that 10 years ago were fine.

Now 16 year olds(and younger) will shoot you there after they take your wallet and phone, just for giggles. Doubt me, look at the Buffalo News regularly, and see how many college students get robbed and beaten or worse by juvies who spend a few weeks off the street before going back to live with Aunties and Grammas.... such very very stable home environments(sarcasm) breed miscreant, psychopathic behavior...

Look at the Seattle bus attack...

Look up Tuba man in Seattle....

The couple should sue the pants off the theatre and mall complex.... when those kids were ejected from the theatre they should have been ecorted off the mall/theatre premises... you can't tell me that the theatre manager wasn't aware of the mob gathering outside....

Look at FBI stats.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Bad Deal for this couple! I would have got up and left and asked for a refund.

After his wife got knocked out if he had pulled a Glock and rocked the mob I would feel no pity for any of them who got hit.

 

[Hook686]

Today, 03:46 PM Zoogster wrote:

Self defense in real mob situations is a lot more difficult than with clear crossed lines.
A mob may be a lot of people yet to participate in any attack, some of which may work up the "courage" to participate in an attack, but that if force is used against prior could result in serious charges.

The guy yelling to "kick them in the head" while your loved one is on the ground may be increasing the danger and escalating the violence, but harming them would be unlikely to hold up in court as self defense. Even if they are verbally encouraging things likely to result in death or serious injury.

Would such encouragement by said individual be considered a felony ? If so, would not stopping a felony be just grounds for shooting the BG ?

 

[Jframe.38]

In all seriousness that large of a group manifesting that sort of hostile intent would constitute disparity of force and per se threat of serious bodily injury or death. IMO I believe that the victim would be justified in using deadly force.

This is a prime example of why to carry oc or taser and a firearm.

 

[Avenger29]

Get attacked by a mob and if you are thinking too much about legalities during the fight, you aren't going to live to the point where they will matter. It's the same rules of engagement as any other scenario: You engage the active attacker(s) and then prepare to engage anyone who still wants a piece...don't overthink it.

I have never understood why people get into it with troublemakers at a movie theater (or any other venue), and then stick around while the troublemakers hatch a plan to cause even bigger trouble

Most decent people just don't get it, they do not recognize the evil and ruthlessness of people like these "teenagers" and are not prepared to be equally ruthless in their defense...by the time they realize what is going to happen, it's too late.

 

[Tomcat47]

Kobiashimaru !

Have no idea if that is spelled right? And no Im not a trekky!

But we all know what Captain Kirk said about the "No win Scenario"

The Only way to Win is to Not Play!

And this was a Kobiashimaru !

Truly a bad situation with no right answers. There is no respect from the younger generation now and I dont know that it can be reversed.

They live to make a cell video of some one getting beat up or hurt. very un-nerving to me!

 

[cleardiddion]

I have to agree with some of the above comments, especially the ones about not engaging in with youngins if possible; what the couple did may have seemed to them as something innocent but they didn't really have an idea of the consequences of the events. It seems like many of the 'people' of my age group have lost all semblence of what is considered to be common courtesy.

As for dealing with a mob, well there's not a whole lot you can do. Normally, I wouldn't stand for anyone even coming close to doing any harm to my girl but something tells me 100v1 is not good odds unless you have airpower on your side. I keep a long gun in the car whenever I can (usually my Winchester model 94) in addition to my carry gun and that might keep the crowd at bay. However, I shudder to think of what would happen if I actually had to use it. Just imagining it could give someone nightmares.

The way I see it, the best course of action is to make a hasty and clear retreat. I would make sure that my girl got in the car, the doors locked, and I would find the most expedient way to get out dodge. They try to block the car in? Drive. I mean, not run over people but keep a steady pressure on the gas which should be enough to push the crowd out of the way.