ATF: 3 day wait on ALL AR15 receivers (ILLINOIS)

[Birdmang]

This sounds kind of odd but here is the story.

My local gun shop, which also happens to be a giant importer/retailer of mil-surps with not the best reputation, had a new rule given to the by the ATF about AR15 receivers.

I was purchasing an AR15 lower receiver and was told that I had to wait 3 days, per ATF contacting them saying, "any AR15 receiver can be made a pistol, so it must be a 3 day wait period."

My understanding is that IL state law/firearms code is what makes the waiting periods, not the ATF. The waiting periods in each state are per state law not federal law, correct?

So why would the ATF say this to my LGS, or maybe the IL state police told him this and he said ATF accidently?

Anyways I can't find a reason for the shop to benefit from waiting 3 days vs. 1 day, unless they are afraid of being audited and getting in trouble for it.

Any information is appreciated, thanks.

 

[mbogo]

Find a new gun shop. The BATFE cannot impose a waiting period.

mbogo

 

[Mahnmut]

The Gunstore owner is correct in a way. The ATF would have told him about the state laws concerning gun purchases. And since the AR-15 lower can be made into either a pistol or a rifle, the 3 day waiting period applies. He isn't even supposed to sell a stripped lower to someone under 21 because of the potential to be made into a pistol.


It doesn't have to make sense...It's just the law

 

[MtnCreek]

When does an AR lower become a rifle or pistol? Is it a rifle or pistol when it's manufactured on when it's assembled. It is a firearm once manufactured, so is it recorded as either a rifle or pistol at that time?

 

[mgmorden]

And since the AR-15 lower can be made into either a pistol or a rifle

Not quite true. PHYSICALLY they can - there is no actual difference between an AR-15 pistol lower and a rifle lower, but when the item is manufactured it has to be marked and the paperwork filed as one or the other. It's basically just a matter of which one the manufacturer puts it down for, but even before you start strapping on your other parts it's already legally either a rifle or a pistol.

Which one it is will limit what you can attach to it. If it's a pistol, then no butt-stocks. If it's a rifle, then no short barrels (unless you go through the extra red tape to get it setup as a short barreled rifle).

 

[MtnCreek]

So this new rule is because someone might break the law....
Maybe we need a rule that limits the sale of AR butstocks to people with registered SBR's because someone with a pistol could convert it to a SBR. Same for pistol upper.....

 

[mgmorden]

So this new rule is because someone might break the law....

Nah. I doubt there is any "new rule" at all. Just a gunshop owner confused about the existing law.

 

[Bubbles]

He isn't even supposed to sell a stripped lower to someone under 21 because of the potential to be made into a pistol.

This is incorrect. Under the 1968 Gun Control Act it is illegal for an FFL to sell any "firearm" to someone under 21 unless the firearm is a long gun. Because a receiver is not a long gun, but it is a firearm, it is marked as "Other" on the ATF 4473 and it can only be sold to someone 21 years or older.

A stripped receiver is not a handgun under federal law. If it were, dealers would have to fill out a multiple purchase form for transfers of 2 or more within a five business day time period.

ETA: If you read the specific IL statute, the waiting period is 24 hours for concealable firearms, and 72 hours for long guns. I don't see a provision listed for stripped receivers, probably because it was written 1) by people who don't know jack about firearms, and 2) well before it was common for people to purchase stripped receivers and build out their own guns.

Here is the IL law: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K24-3.htm

 

[NavyLCDR]

Not quite true. PHYSICALLY they can - there is no actual difference between an AR-15 pistol lower and a rifle lower, but when the item is manufactured it has to be marked and the paperwork filed as one or the other. It's basically just a matter of which one the manufacturer puts it down for, but even before you start strapping on your other parts it's already legally either a rifle or a pistol.

I am afraid that the ATF disagrees with you:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf

Age Restriction & Interstate Transfer Reminders

Licensees are reminded that firearm frames, receivers, and
other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns
(rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.” They
cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person under
21 years of age. Additionally, 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3) states that
a licensee shall not sell or deliver any firearm other than a
shotgun or rifle to any person who does not reside in the
State in which the licensee’s place of business or activity is located;
this restriction includes handguns, pistol grip firearms
utilizing shotgun ammunition, and frames and receivers.

Because the lower receiver is transferred on the form 4473 as an "Other Firearm", any exceptions made to such requirements as waiting periods made for rifles and shotguns do not apply to receivers. I haven't looked up Illinois state law, but I bet the law says something along the lines of there is a waiting period for firearms sales and that rifles and shotguns are exempt from the waiting period. Since the receiver is not a rifle or shotgun, it is not exempt from the waiting period.

 

[N003k]

MGMordan...are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure as it stands a lower is just marked as 'other' on a 4473, and that until it's assembled it's either an other or a 'firearm'. Afterall, there's no way for most consumers to know when they're sold new...they tend to just be a 'AR15 lower'. Otherwise, you'd break the law making it into a pistol if it happened to be 'made' as a rifle, right?

Also, my guess is if IL has a 3 day wait on pistols, since it can be either or, either the ATF warned him, not 'told' him, that the IL police might decide it has to undergo the wait since it CAN be a pistol, or the IL police told him that it had to undergo the wait for that reason.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Here's the Illinois statute:

5/24-3. Unlawful Sale of Firearms
(g) Delivers any firearm of a size which may
be concealed upon the person, incidental to a
sale, without withholding delivery of such firearm
for at least 72 hours after application for its
purchase has been made, or delivers any rifle,
shotgun or other long gun, or a stun gun or
taser, incidental to a sale, without withholding
delivery of such rifle, shotgun or other long gun,
or a stun gun or taser for at least 24 hours after
application for its purchase has been made.

An AR-15 Lower Receiver is a firearm, no? And an AR-15 Lower Receiver can certainly be concealed upon the person, no? Since an AR-15 Lower Receiver happens to be a firearm, and since it is of a size which can be concealed on the person, the three day wait applies in Illinois.

 

[MisterMike]

If you read the specific IL statute, the waiting period is 24 hours for concealable firearms, and 72 hours for long guns.

It's the other way around--24 hours for long guns and 72 hours for concealable firearms.

 

[Bubbles]

It's the other way around--24 hours for long guns and 72 hours for concealable firearms.

Doh! You're right. It looks like ATF is saying that stripped receivers are "concealable", and therefore the 72 hours wait applies.

Stuff like this makes me glad I'm an FFL in WV... :banghead:

 

[Standing Wolf]

Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

 

[MtnCreek]

Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

Probably next to the part that talks about 'sporting purposes'.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

Where does the Second Amendment guarantee the right to immediately take possession of a firearm once purchased? The Second Amendment only guarantees the right to KEEP and BEAR arms. I don't see purchase mentioned anywhere....

 

[7.62 Nato]

Where does the Second Amendment guarantee the right to immediately take possession of a firearm once purchased? The Second Amendment only guarantees the right to KEEP and BEAR arms. I don't see purchase mentioned anywhere....

It's under the part " SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" !!!

 

[newfalguy101]

This is actually one of those unintended consequences.

ATF changed the 4473 to give a place for dealers to correctly classify receivers as "other", however, as a result of the "other" option, receivers must now be treated basically as handguns, meaning:

Buyers must be 21 or over
buyers must be RESIDENTS


In Nebraska, a purchase permit is required for all handgun transfers, and now, as a result of the "other" classification, stripped receivers

 

[blackDdefense]

As an FFL the rather "safe then sorry" applies rather then "its easy to beg forgiveness than ask permission"...just my thoughts.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Never mind. I misread the previous post!