ATF Dropped the ball, local gun store robbed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

feedthehogs

Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Messages
1,801
Our local gun dealer, hang out spot, was broken into and robbed of 10 handguns and 2 long guns thanks to the ATF.

3 months ago a few of us were hanging out in the shop when in walks a dreadlocked individual with a grill claiming not to be able to fit a magazine in an SKS. We all said bring in the gun and we'll help you out.
He left and returned an hour later with a magazine that looked like three 30 rounders had been welded together and an SKS that had the barrel cut right after the gas tube.

Recognizing the NFA violation, no one said anything and the dealer said if you leave the gun and come back in an hour I'll have it fixed for you. The guy got nervous, grabbed the gun and ran out the door.

The dealer called ATF and the incident was reported. An Agent came out a few days later and while the guys name was never given, a description was.
The agent produced a few photos and one was the gun owner. He had been arrested on NFA violations before and was one of five members of a local group known for gun running. The agent thanked the dealer saying he would be arrested.

Funny thing happend a month later. In walks grill face with the same SKS out of the stock having trouble getting it back in. The dealer again said leave the gun, the guy declined and left. He was reported again but no agent showed up this time.

Last week grill face shows up again and just looks around the shop and leaves. The owner reports it again.

A few days later the store is broken into at 5am. The owner who lives about three blocks from the store gets there two minutes after the alarm goes off but they are already gone.

40 MINUTES later the cops show up. 3 female and one male deputy.
The male deputy walks in and the first thing out of his mouth was a few explitives and the comment, damn gun stores, now there are more guns on the street.

The owner who has lost part of his lively hood, felt like he had been raped, told the male cop with alot of explitives to get the hell out of his shop with an attitude like his. The cop left and one of the female cops apologized for his attitude.

After taking fingerprints and finding a glove at the scene, a few days later the local detective says he matched a print and wanted to drop off some pictures. He came by and put 20 pictures on the counter. Right in the middle was old grill face. The owner picked him out and proceeded to tell the local detective about grill faces history at the store.

The detective calls the owner back the next day after talking to the ATF.
Apparently the AFT agent who took the original report of the NFA violation just never bothered following up with the original or subsequent calls.
Otherwise old grill face, with a rap sheet 4 pages long, would have been in Federal custody.

Now the ATF is getting involved. The original agent is reported to be in the hot seat(nothing will happen to him) and they are going to finally pick grill face up.
They are already talking a deal though. He is looking at about 30 years in Federal custody. They want to offer him a deal for low time if he tells them where the guns are.

Great, not even in custody and they want to plead out.

This dealer was just audited by the ATF last month and ripped a new one by the auditor because there were two 4473's that the persons filling them out left out their city in the box for address.

Law abiding get rolled over the coals, crimminals get to skate.
Just another day in paradise.
 
Did the prints in the glove match old grill face? Why was this a-hole stupid enough to show up to a gun store with a weapon that he knew was illegally modded 3 times and what erks me is the fact that the ATF knows this guy from before. I mean they let him stay on the street and prance in to the shop 3 times with each one being reported and nothing happens. Wow just wow, how could they let something like this happen. Also why would someone be so hard up as to weld 3 10rd. mags together to make a 30rd. mag when 30rd. mags are not that hard to get a hold of anyways.
 
Addendum:

Of course, it the ATF had picked up old grill face (whatever that means), and he was a white militia member, everybody would be screaming about how the JBTs are pickin on gun owners just becasue their barrels are a bit too short etc...

WildhypocrisyAlaska
 
Sounds more like it might have been the atf trying for a sting operation on the dealer. After all they already had him on the improper paperwork violation... Get him to work on an illegal NFA weapon and whoop-te-do we got us another case to justify a bigger budget. That might also be why the plea bargin and the rest of it. Of course, I tend toward the paranoid side as I work for the .gov and I get to see just how stupid a lot of us are....
:scrutiny: :rolleyes: :neener:
 
I'd wager that 0007 nailed it. The guy was a confidential informant working for the ATF. Small-time crook gets recruited to help bust the "real" criminals (gunshop owners). Uses his immunity to pull off a few more jobs at the same time, and if caught, the ATF is right there to spring their CI.

Hasn't this been ATF's procedure in a number of other cases?
 
So just where did this supposed burglary take place?

I noticed that there is a decided critical link missing in the story to substantiate that 'grill face' was the burglar. A print was found and matched and then the police brought out pictures and the owner picked out the same guy as he had picked for the ATF. Nowhere was it stated that the print found was a match for the person in the line-up. Of course, this was mentioned by crewchief. Also as he noted, the business about the welded mags doesn't make much sense given the ease of procurement and low cost of SKS mags.

Just curious, if the cops found a print and knew to whom it belonged, why the photo line-up for the store owner? It seems odd that the police did a photo line-up AFTER they already had an identified suspect, but did not yet have knowledge of the NFA violation incidents and the gun store owner had to explain them AFTER the lineup. Weird.

As for old grill face being in the lineup with the police, no doubt several local thugs were in the lineup as well.

The repeated theme in the is story that the gun store owner is repeatedly not taken seriously or is maltreated by those in law enforcement. Put that in the light that the store owner is always shown as the proverbial good guy figrue with lightning fast response (2 minutes response time) as opposed to the slow moving inept cops and you have the makings of a nice little bit of folklore.

hammer4nc, hasn't this been the ATF's procedure in a number of other cases? Well, you apparently think it has been, so how about you coming up with the justification or examples?
 
So, let me see if I get this right...

The ATF does not go after someone zealously for doing something that everyone here seems to think should not be illegal...and if they had gone after him we would be tumbling out of the woodwork to call the ATF a bunch of jackbooted thugs...and now, because the ATF has done pretty much what 'we' want them to do (read: nothing), they are at fault for allowing this store to be "robbed" (read: burgled).

Wow. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :rolleyes:

I'm also with WildsomethingdoesnotadduphereAlaska.

CorothemoralofthestoryistheATFisalwaysinthewrongheyitseasierthanthinkingnach
 
'Scuse me, but I don't see why the photo ID thing would be more than just corroboration, to make sure everybody's talking about the same guy. Why would it matter that the photo ID came after the discovery of the fingerprint? The shop owner wasn't involved in the lab work for the fingerprint ID.

Seems to me the glove was found at the scene; the lab discovered the print (in or on the glove, sound like from the above post; but could have been a "lifted" print from a showcase) and somewhere an ID was made from the records.

About that same time, the shop owner is asked to look at photos. "Which one was the guy you saw?"

Sorry, but I don't see anything illegal, immoral or fattening about that...

Art
 
art,

over here, any ID based on that would be suspect at trial - it would be better to run the ID as a parade where the suspect could be identified with his leech present; otherwise the leech will just say "the only reason you identified my client is because the officer pointed him out to you", which that ID process runs the risk of doing.
 
1. The ATF (and other enforcement agencies) use confidential informants, on a regular basis. Happens every day.

2. Said confidential informants are often criminals themselves, and are "encouraged" to work for the government in exchange for reduced sentences, dismissed charges, or other "lenient" treatment (i.e., plea bargaining).

3. The basic concept is "bigger fish". LE is willing to overlook lawbreaking at one level, if it helps them get a perceived "larger" bust or conviction.

4. Depending on the nature of the investigation, the crimes overlooked are often serious themselves, and happen after the CI has been recruited. See "Whitey" Bulger, Steven Flemmi, Raed Hijazi, Andraes Strassmeir, et al. The bargain made by govt. agents may not be so wise in retrospect.

5. ATF has a questionable track record, wrt enforcing firearms laws.

6. In this case, a seedy character shows up at a gunstore multiple times with illegal weapon. When the store owner notifies authorities, nothing is done. The store is later burgled, and evidence linking to the suspicious character is slow walked.

Government apologists are welcome to debate the above points. I've enumerated them for your convenience. Please include a convincing affirmative argument on how these agencies are just "here to help", rather than just disparaging, or playing the "tinfoil hat" card.
 
I call BS on this one...
Nope. It could ... and probably did ... happen just as described. Several months back I wandered into my local gun shop to find the place filled with uniforms and suits. Seems person or persons unknown had used a truck to batter in the rear door at 02:00 a.m. and stole about 50 weapons, mostly handguns but a few long guns in the mix. ATF agents on the scene were obviously trying to make a case that the store owner had either done the job himself, or set it up for friends to do it. Mind you, this is a shop that sells to the local P.D.s.

A couple of months later, the store was burgled again. Same MO, and of course the ATF guys were now even more certain the owner was involved, so they didn't put a lot of effort into finding the real perps.

Then just a few weeks ago, because the owner had installed a braced door with multiple deadlocks, barriers to stop a truck before it could hit the door, and new alarms (like the old alarms did any good), a pair of gang bangers walked into the store in the middle of the day and stuck a gun in the owner's face. They held him at gunpoint while they cleaned out about every handgun in the display cases. Fortunately, this time he had surveillance video running so they now have pics.

The point, though, is that the BATFE agents are anti-gun, so they begin with the assumption that the gun shop owner is a bad guy, is implicated, and is lying. This bias clearly wastes time, effort and respirces, and puts them behind the curve in finding the real perp(s) ... and the guns.
 
Apparently the AFT agent who took the original report of the NFA violation just never bothered following up with the original or subsequent calls.
Otherwise old grill face, with a rap sheet 4 pages long, would have been in Federal custody.

Yeah, but I'm sure Agent Schmuckatelli will straighten things out PDQ.
 
ag, if only one photo was shown, and it was a primary reason for an arrest and subsequent indictment, I'd go along with you. However, it seems from the text that the "Perp" had distinctive features, plus it may have been that the shopowner picked him out from among several photos of similar-appearing people.

Art
 
Nope. It could ... and probably did ... happen just as described

Lets see...you extrapolate that the incident in question, which you have no facts about othert than a post on the internet, did probably occur based on your observations of an incident at another gunshop?

Hmmmmm:rolleyes:

The point, though, is that the BATFE agents are anti-gun, so they begin with the assumption that the gun shop owner is a bad guy, is implicated, and is lying. This bias clearly wastes time, effort and respirces, and puts them behind the curve in finding the real perp(s) ... and the guns.

And you facts to base that on are what?> What you heard in a gunshop? Agents "obviosly" trying to make a case that the shop owner did it? How were they doing this? You mean to say to us that the ATF agents and local police permitted you, a civilian, to listen to an interrogation? How long were you there? What diod you hear them say?

of course the ATF guys were now even more certain the owner was involved, so they didn't put a lot of effort into finding the real perps.

How do YOU know how much effort the ATF put into that case? Were you privy to their investigation?

This constant LE bashing is getting tiresome.


WildgiveitabreakAlaska
 
Tiresome as well as discouraging. When was the last time you effected change in someone's behavior by calling them names and impuning their professionalism.

Look, there have been authenticated cases of thuggery by LEOs from time to time here and at TFL; but for the most part, cops are just people of varying abilities who are trying to do their job the best way they know how. They deal with the scum of society on a daily basis, and can be forgiven a degree of cynicism and skepticism. To bash them without making a factual case is just juvenile and boring. :banghead:

TC
TFL Survivor
 
Well I'm a Criminal Investigator, and you need to know that all agencies including ATF are swamped. They may have had more promising and much bigger cases than this one guy. It just works that way. Just like DEA can't afford to spend time on a guy selling dime bags of weed, when they have people selling very large quantities of drugs.

Also, the investigators are limited by what is viable for prosecution. If the prosecutor says the case isn't worth his or her time, the agents won't waste their time because it will never see court. That also ties into the claims about potential deals. LE agencies DO NOT make deals, the prosecutor does. Agencies can ask the prosecutor to enter into plea negotiations to assist an investigation, but they can't offer things up and the prosecutor doesn't always go along with what agents want.

Anway, seeing as how this took place in Florida I thought I might check and see what else the ATF was doing that might have distracted them from this case:

http://www.atf.gov/press/fy03press/field/042203tam_guiltypleas.pdf
TITUSVILLE BANK ROBBERS PLEAD GUILTY IN FEDERAL COURT

http://www.atf.gov/press/fy03press/field/062503tam_psnsentencing.htm
Project Safe Neighborhoods Nets Armed Career Criminal 15 Years

http://www.atf.gov/press/fy03press/field/050203tam_firearm.pdf
Project Safe Neighborhood Defendant Sentenced To
180 Months' Imprisonment For Possessing A Firearm
While Being A Convicted Felon

http://www.atf.gov/press/fy03press/field/032803tam_argro.pdf
ORLANDO MAN SENTENCED TO MORE THAN 20 YEARS IN
"PROJECT SAFE NEIGHBORHOODS " CASE - Federal firearms and drug charges

For some reason the Miami office doesn't have any press releases posted, and Tampa is only posting convictions not pending cases like some other offices do. There again, press releases are determined by the US Attorney's Office, so the agency has little to do with that. I'm sure the Florida field offices have a great deal going on that may distract them from this particular individual.

However, it is kind of silly to blame the ATF for the robbery of the store. There may be several reason why they didn't arrest this guy sooner, not the least of which is they may not have had enough evidence to secure an arrest warrant. (and based on what was presented here that appears to be the situation) Contrary to popular belief ATF agents aren't thugs looking to violate people's rights, they are law enforcement professionals. That means they must have a valid legal reason for arresting someone, and it appears from what was presented that they did not.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV.
 
A few comments to my post.

One, Three 30 round magazines were welded together, not 3 ten round.
I saw the stupid thing on his original visit.

Two, more than one picture of suspects were shown,

Three, the glove won't produce finger prints but will DNA. But the results take much longer to come back from the lab.

They have prints off other areas that get touched many time during the day and a print from a week ago would have rubbed off. That was the guys last visit.

Four, and no offence taken by wild that I'm completly making this up and its just another leo bashing thread.

The ATF agent as reported by the detective to the gun store owner and directly to me did not follow thru on the original NFA complaint. The violator has over 4 pages of arrests, many of them being firearms violations. He is part of a 5 man gang known to the ATF who all have firearms violations. It has been reported by other ATF agents other than the original one taking the complaint that this guy and his gang are known to be armed and dangerous and were extremely interested in picking him up but the original agent did not follow up after the picture ID. There was enough evidence as the three of us who saw the first violation were willing to testify when the guy was arrested.

If the first agent that took the complaint and ID had followed thru the guy would have been arrested and the gun store most likely would have not been broken into. You do the math.

I posted it because of the hassle the gun dealer got over a couple of 4473's and the comparison of reporting an NFA violation of a known felon by the ATF and nothing being done. It is a clear cut case of the failure to enforce the current laws on the books and the reason more laws are pushed on top of us everyday.

The excuse of overloaded and over worked departments gets old. Every government agency when caught with their pants down uses that excuse.

The reaction by the PBC sheriff's deputy was not typical of them all as the female deputy apologized for his reaction after he left. He was clearly one of the cops who don't think guns should be in private hands which seems to be a minority opinion as a whole but needs to be reported as it is a wrong opinion.

Having been a member of this forum early on, my posts are relativly few as I have better things to do with my life than to make up stories and see what kind of reactions I can stir from faceless beings. Especially those who's reactions are predictable.

It was never a leo bashing thread and any attempt to portray it as such is irresponsible, but predictable.

Have a nice day!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top