NRA Board member loses his Gun Store

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I suscribe to the theory that says a thread is headed rapidly downhill the first time either nazi or Hitlier is used.

And Waco and Ruby Ridge for that matter.

It always ends up sounding like some clueless politician playing to the crowd instead of dealing with the facts of the situation under dicussion.

John
 
O K then....

Well, we're all entitled to believe whatever we wish, but as i said in a prior post, conspiracy theorists are doing nothing but empowering their supposed 'enemy', by scaring the crap out of the liberal crowd, when they make themselves sound like a bunch of crazy militia types.
If they keep at it long enough eventually their fears will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the liberal-types all have one thing in common, they all vote, and they'll vote for all the anti-gun-types they can find.
You conspiracy buffs are your own worst enemies, and you don't even know enough to realize it. Thanks for all the 'help' guys!
Watch out now, here come the black helicopters!! :neener:
 
By limiting the debate, you can pretty much control it.
I'm hardly limiting the debate; I was trying to concisely sum up the effects of the situation.
You're coming on a gun board and defending every jot and tittle of these regs because "they're the law". And the alternative is anarchy?
Do you think I was defending "every jot and tittle of these regs" because "they're the law?" Perhaps I was not clear enough. Permit me to restate. First, a disclaimer that
(1) I am strongly against any new regulation of gun sales, gun ownership or gun carrying in this country, that further,
(2) I believe gun ownership is highly over-regulated already in this country and that
(3) such regulation does in fact constitute an infringement upon both our natural rights, our civil rights and our Constitutional rights, while finally:
(4) I do not take as an article of faith everything that government agencies put out for public consumption is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. (I worked for the government for far too long.)

My main point is that the current regulations are firmly entrenched and that -- and this is most tragic, but it's the reality of our society and our government -- even the appearance of long-term, willful and substantial violations of federal law by those who are charged with abiding by the regulations do far more damage to our cause than even perhaps high profile crimes committed with firearms by those who are already criminals. We can work to change the regulations, but by ignorance of the regulations, or by knowingly ignoring the regulations, we just make everything worse. I didn't enter this thread to debate the regulations, only the consequences of this particular dealer's situation.

You also said
i.e., benign mistake by the dealer; malicious prosecution on the part of BATF, politically inspired; a thuggish DA or agent-in charge, who are trying to make their bones? Haven't we just heard one side of this story so far? What side would that be? Is your trust in the BATFE so complete that you are unable question the source?
First, this situation hardly appears to be a "benign" mistake by the dealer. Whether it's politically motivated or even a wholesale conspiracy on the part of hundreds of members of a federal agency, that is not relevant to the outcome. Of course we may question the source, and that's the first thing we should do. But we cannot give this dealer a free pass on the situation either.
 
The Real Hawkeye -- #42
Quote:
And, of course, any thread remotely touching on that agency sooner than later garners the references to Waco ...

Tell me, please, why you assumed I was referring to Waco.

It doesn't seem such a bad guess to me, you had mentioned Waco earlier.

The Real Hawkeye -- #19
Now who's being naive? Are you aware how many people have been murdered in the ATF's war on the Second Amendment? If you require an example of mass live human incineration, I offer Waco.
 
Sorry, TRH, just made a quick assumption there. Perhaps you could clarify your reference, then?
Ah, but you see, I was making a bit of a point. The reason you assumed I was talking about Waco in the bit you quoted was because "the shoe fit." And "if the shoe fits, wear it." :D
 
Well, TRH, again, another reality. Everyone, every thing and every group in our society gets tagged with some sort of reputation, deserved or not.

While another very interesting (and rather hypocritical) behavior that gun folk commonly exhibit is an unbridled hostile reaction to being labeled in any way, based on our status as gun-owners ...

Yet, so many of us are so frequently quick to assign labels, ascribe tendencies, go along with stereotypes, pass judgement or base all interaction, on all those who do not share our beliefs or are outside the gun culture, based on isolated, rare or exceptional instances that do not truly represent the norm.
 
I suscribe to the theory that says a thread is headed rapidly downhill the first time either nazi or Hitlier is used.
You are expressing your hope, not actually a theory. You HOPE that all such threads get shut down, and you will do whatever you are able to see that it does in fact deteriorate to that point. Smart people talk about history, and learn from it.
 
Well, we're all entitled to believe whatever we wish, but as i said in a prior post, conspiracy theorists are doing nothing but empowering their supposed 'enemy', by scaring the crap out of the liberal crowd, when they make themselves sound like a bunch of crazy militia types.
If they keep at it long enough eventually their fears will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the liberal-types all have one thing in common, they all vote, and they'll vote for all the anti-gun-types they can find.
Oh, yes, Lou, we must all watch what we say. You are right. We should learn to be content with what liberties our government deigns to give us. Must be good little communists. Yes, good. We mustn't talk that dirty liberty talk anymore. Nasty! Nasty! Bad liberty!
 
it sounds to me like between 2001 and 2003, he lost 340 firearms on sales of approximately 6,000 firearms in that period.

5% shrink rate.

if i'm reading that right, this guy isn't going out of business cause of the atf, he's going out of business cause he's a MORON. the atf is just letting him know about it.
 
Guy who sells to the public, has an FFL, agrees to abide by the rules specific to the FFL. He'd been warned twice to get his accounting in order. He is now living the consequences. On another note, I know of a dealer who wasn't aware that his employees were stealing until he was audited by ATF. BOY, was HE surprised. Fired 'em all he did.
 
Hawk,
in quoting me you forgot to include my warning to you & yours about the black helicopters, which are no doubt at this very moment, hovering over your house :neener: too bad nobody else would be able to see them or hear them but you though, huh?
 
To: Pauli

+10,000!!
Imagine that, the guy's a moron??[/I] :) 'Yathink?? :) Think this could mean that he's not a victim of some government conspiracy after all?
 
It All Depends on Who Writes the Rules

First, I guess, you would have to look at the defination of "missing" or "lost". Does this also included items stolen? How about items ordered but never delivered or delivered but came up short? Are break in's held against you. There are lots of ways to play the game, and the governement can stack the deck against you by its defination of terms.

Years ago in the late 1970's, BATF refused to re-new the license of a firearms wholeseller. They appealed and lost. After that they continued to sell their inventory of over 120,000 firearms until they were sold out. The only thing is they stopped following the Gun Control Law of 1968 since they were no longer dealers and it did not apply to them. (Some things were different then. BATF was also told by a the Federal Court to stay out of gunshows. It was impossible to get a Firearms License to deal at gunshows (It was a premise license only), thus BATF had no buiness being there. THAT IS THE REASON DEALERS CAN NOW LEGALY BE AT GUNSHOWS, IT ALLOWS THE BATF TO BE THERE ALSO)

They were arrested brougnt to Federal Court where the Judge danced all over the government's case saying in part you can not say first, someone is "not in the buisness" when you denied the re-newal of their license and then later say they are "in the buiness" because they continuing the same act of Selling off selling off inventory. CASE DISMISSED.

I do not have all or many of the facts, but I will ventrue that the WORD has come down on high to run as many dealers out of the buisness as possible. I will side with the indivdual against the governement's case until government proves it in court. I guess that is what Juriors are suppose to do. Bring it on and prove it, until then hands off.
 
No honest dealer would just let 650 firearms (from 1997-2003) 'disappear' from his inventory. Even if they were all hi-points at $150 apiece that would total nearly $100,000.

How many FFLs here can afford to take a $100,000 loss? The only conceivable reason for not reporting that much in firearms stolen and trying to get an insurance claim is if something shady is going on and he's getting compensated more by some unnamed source.
 
Boofus, why do you assume you are getting the straight scoop from the BATFE? I don't know for a fact that a single firearm is unaccounted for in that store. The man is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of his peers. This is especially the case when the charges are being pressed by the BATFE.
 
True, the ATF has been known to fabricate evidence before.

But if all those firearms really are unaccounted for, the guy shouldn't be allowed in the business.

Even if you consider the 2nd Amendment defense argument, the fed gov does have the constitutional power to tax interstate commerce for revenue and they can claim he attempted tax evasion and charge him with that instead.
 
Hawk,
in quoting me you forgot to include my warning to you & yours about the black helicopters, which are no doubt at this very moment, hovering over your house too bad nobody else would be able to see them or hear them but you though, huh?
Since this is The High Road, I am not at liberty to respond to you quite as you deserve, so I will just begin to ignore you starting now.
 
First, I guess, you would have to look at the defination of "missing" or "lost". Does this also included items stolen? How about items ordered but never delivered or delivered but came up short? Are break in's held against you. There are lots of ways to play the game, and the governement can stack the deck against you by its defination of terms.

It is actually pretty straight forward. As I said earlier, there is a bound book, which is just a record of what comes in to the store and what goes out. Anything logged into the bound book should either be logged out or in the store.

I'll run through your list:

Items Stolen: One way to log something out is to fill out "Inventory Theft/Loss" paperwork. If for some reason you check you inventory and you can't find a gun, or there is a break in and items are stolen, you fill out paperwork that says so. You also notify the local police and the ATF. Then you can "log the guns out" and when the ATF comes to check your inventory they see that those guns should not be in the store. You have committed no infraction, because you can account for every gun in the books and every gun in the store.

Items Ordered but never delivered: If they aren't delivered, they don't go in the bound book. The gun does not get logged in until it arrives and the dealer checks the serial number. If it isn't delivered, then the gun is neither in the bound book or the store. Again, this is the way it should be . . .guns in the book match up with guns in the store.

A very innocent example of how the book might not match the inventory:
I sell a Glock, and a customer fills out the 4473 and passes the NICS check. I sign the 4473 and give the customer his gun. But I forget to log out the sale in the bound book. When the ATF comes to inspect me, they ask to see the Glock in my bound book, but it is no longer here, because I sold it. That is a "missing" gun, because as of now I can't account for it. If I would have done regular inventory inspections this would have been avoided, because I would have found the problem before the ATF.

The way I see it, there are 4 possibilities:
1) The store in question has over 400 problems with their record keeping, and dilligent searching of their 4473s will show that they actually can account for all of the "missing" guns.
2) The store in question actually lost over 400 guns and has no idea where they are.
3) Some combination of 1 and 2. This is what I'd bet on. With several people working and a lot of gun transactions, there is a high possibility that there are a lot of paperwork errors and that a couple guns walked out in someone's pocket.
4) The ATF is trying to shut down a store and is planting evidence and falsifying records.

Has the ATF done this in the past? I believe they have. I believe they will do so in the future. I also believe, based on the information contained in the article, that in this case they probably went by the books, gave the guy several warnings, and he refused to do anything to change the way he ran his business.

But on Thursday, U.S. District Judge William M. Nickerson ruled that while Abrams "may challenge the numerousness or seriousness of its violations of federal firearms law, [he] makes no credible argument that there were no violations."

"The undisputed fact is that because of [Valley Gun's] lapses, scores of firearms are unaccounted for, and therefore, untraceable," the judge ruled.

You can bet that if the store owner felt the ATF was out to get him, he would have mentioned it. The owner admits that most of the mistakes are human error.
 
You know, I suppose that in the field of Constitutional Law 38 years must be an eternity, but I'd like to point out some non-paranoid, completely uncontraversial details about the ATF and the Federal government.

  • The US Constitution does not grant police powers to the Federal government.
  • The US Constitution does not grant ANY police powers to the Federal government.
  • Only States possess police powers.
  • The federal government does not claim to possess police powers.
  • The Supreme Court has never ruled that the Federal Government possesses police powers.
  • The Supreme Court has ruled numerous times that the Federal Government absolutely does not possess police powers.
  • The BATFE is an agency of the Federal Government
  • The BATFE is a TAX AGENCY, not an agency of the non-existent Federal Police.
  • As a TAX AGENCY, the BATFE has no legitimate police powers.
  • The National Firearms Act of 1934 [NFA] is a TAX ACT
  • Prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968 [GCA] (passed primarially to attempt to limit access to guns by racial minorities) guns could be ordered from magazines and sold through the mail.
  • Limiting the access of US citizens to own guns infringes their right to keep and bear arms.
  • Forbidding ownership of certain guns infringes the constitutional right of US citizens to keep and bear arms.
  • Because the forms filled out by licenced gun dealers are BATFE forms, the forms filled out by gun dealers are TAX forms, not forms submitted to a non-existent Federal Police agency.
  • BAFTE regulations requiring specific paperwork to be filled out by gun dealers are TAX REGULATIONS, because the BATFE is a tax agency.
  • Violations of BATFE regulations are TAX violations, because the BATFE is a tax agency, not a non-existent Federal Police agency.
  • When the BATFE shuts down a gun store, what is being asserted is that the gun store failed to comply with filling out tax forms for a tax agency.
  • If 30 or 65 BATFE agents, clad in body armor and black ski masks enter your store or home with automatic weapons drawn, they are TAX AGENTS enforcing federal TAX law.
  • When the BATFE testifies in court, under oath, as to the accuracy of their internal paperwork, they have never testified that it is less than 100% accurate. However, Federal prosecutors, under court disclosure laws, have been forced to provide documentation to defense attorneys that the BATFE's accuracy rate is closer to 50% in some areas.
  • No BATFE agent has ever been charged with perjury for false testimony regarding the difference in accuracy officially admitted, and internally admitted in training sessions.

Now, perhaps we can discard some of the "Oh, those brave ATF agents policing and shutting down gun store to make sure guns aren't in the hands of criminals" song and dance?

Dex
firedevil_smiley.gif
 
To those of you who are worried about our image (us gunny types) in the public eye, do you also discourage or disparage those who wear camouflage, have long hair, have beards, have beer guts, drive pickups, or have any of the other typical gun-nut identifiers? Are you a model image of a responsible person? Are you clean-shaven with short blonde hair and blue eyes?

Instead of worrying what one person is doing to our reputation as gun owners, why don't you go out there and show America that regardless of what one person does, we are not neanderthals?

As for a business losing some of it's inventory, so what? Being a bad business man is not grounds for prosecution. Every business loses inventory, even those that have computer based inventory control, like Wal-Mart.

Hawkeye is right, the federal government only has the authority that we give it. We have not given it the authority to regulate the sale of firearms. The BATFE has made it's own rules without input from the citizens in the form of a vote.

Our right to own anything is slowly being eroded by a government that thinks it knows what is best for the citizens. Today, firearms are on the hit list as well as property that a local government wants. Tomorrow might see fast cars being restricted. Next week, maybe books. Really, what is the difference between the first and second amendments?

Are you all so pro-law that you are willing to legislate yourselves out of a hobby? How about a job? When is enough too much?
 
"It's not infringement - why don't you ask the folks who were trying to buy a firearm for protection and were unable to because of background checks and/or waiting periods. Get our your Ouija board, you'll need to communicate with a number of them because they're dead."

That is because you only see the exreeme. Just like the folks over at DU, it is impoosible to debate with people who refuse to accept logic.

Asking a person buying a firearm to fill out a 4473 and asking the merchant to keep control of his inventory is not infringment. To deny a law abiding citizen a firearm is. Now, I dislike the ATF just as much as anyone else, in fact, I would like to close them down. But frankly, I like psycopaths with guns going on killing sprees a little less.

Admittedly, the system is not perfect and needs to be changed. I would prefere a faster, more accurate background check, but we do need a check. Make no mistakes, some folks just should not have access to guns.

Would you rather have guns sold like soda?
 
IDShooter Said: Asking a person buying a firearm to fill out a 4473 and asking the merchant to keep control of his inventory is not infringment. To deny a law abiding citizen a firearm is. Now, I dislike the ATF just as much as anyone else, in fact, I would like to close them down. But frankly, I like psycopaths with guns going on killing sprees a little less.
No one is asking nothing. Try declining and see what happens. If I have to jump through hoops to exercise a right, it's an infringement. And, by the way, please show me where in the US Constitution the Federal Government was delegated the authority to regulate the internal record keeping of gun stores or, for that matter, the authority to keep guns out of the hands of those it labels "psychopaths."
 
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