ATF reverses decision.. Akins Accelerator now MACHINEGUN

[Keith Wheeler]

It simply has been demonized for about two generations and accepted by the masses as such.

And unfortunately those "masses" include the gun masses. Well, maybe not demonized, but I'm still stunned by how so many gun owners mystify FA. Kind of an "and they all moved away from me on the Group W bench" kind of thing.

I think somewhere here I made a comment about "one of the worst implications of the whole NFA is that it has allowed far too many gun owners to be ignorant about machine-guns" or something of that nature. I mean seriously, what's more dangerous, a full auto Vz61 Skorpion or a semi-auto AK?

 

[Brad Johnson]

It's just that the trigger is actually actuated multiple times by a single movement of the finger when the modification is installed.

My point, exactly. Except now the trigger is no longer the initiation point for activation of the weapon. The initiation point is the device which presses said trigger multiple times. As a result, the attached Accelerator is now a part of the overall device just like the sear, bolt, firing pin, or safety. It cannot be used as a standalone technical point when the net effect is the creation of a full-auto weapon.

It still stands that attaching the Accelerator results in a weapon where a single press of a lever/button/switch by the operator results in a constant discharge of rounds by the weapon. Firing does not cease until the operator is no longer depressing the lever/button/switch or until the firearm runs out of ammunition. Full-automatic fire.

Brad

 

[Henry Bowman]

Brad, my distinction is linguistic, not mechanical. we agree on how the device works. The point is the language of the law which was written with respect to a single movement of the trigger -- not the finger.

My point is that technology surpasses the law all the time. Think, for example, copyright law and digital technology. If the legislature wants the law to "catch up" to technology, they have to change the law, not just allow the executive branch to stand it on its ear to "interpret" it to mean what they wish it said. In this case, however, they don't mind because they, too, fear commoners with effective weaponry.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad, my distinction is linguistic, not mechanical. we agree on how the device works. The point is the language of the law which was written with respect to a single movement of the trigger -- not the finger.

Agreed. Unfortunately, in application the connotation has become one of overall function, not function initiation (sort of a wierd version of the chicken-or-egg quandry). The emphasis has become one of considering the function of the original gun and the add-on devices as a complete system, however temporarily or permanently the non-original devices are attached. As a result we are now faced with the situation at hand. I wish it were different, but it isn't.

Brad

 

[Henry Bowman]

Again, I understand your point. Gun + add-on = system. That is the relevant inquiry.

My point is that we operate on the rule of law, not connotations.

 

[Outlaws]

So then we all agree that by law it is not a machine gun, but for all intended purposes it is? Its nice it only took 7 pages for that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So then we all agree that by law it is not a machine gun, but for all intended purposes it is? Its nice it only took 7 pages for that.

Agree... AGREE!?

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
I won't and you can't make me!

Brad

 

[LAR-15]

So then we all agree that by law it is not a machine gun, but for all intended purposes it is? Its nice it only took 7 pages for that.

No we don't.

At least I don't.

A 10/22 can never be a machine gun.

It's a rifle

 

[cslinger]

A 10/22 can never be a machine gun.

Just playing devils advocate but their are actual 10/22 "machine guns" as defined by law. Ie, you hold the trigger down and she rocks and rolls etc. Norell made a bunch IIRC.

 

[LAR-15]

As defined by law........sure.

 

[Wes Janson]

Ok, so can we all agree that the important distinction is the issue of what constitutes trigger movement? And can we all agree that according to the letter of the law, the Accelerator looks by all means to be legal (to the best of our knowledge)? That said, what I'd really, really, really like is to see a copy of the actual BATFE letter reversing their decision, in order to see specifically what language they use.

 

[deadin]

Now Wes, you are going to ruin everything by asking for facts instead of conjecture

 

[Otherguy Overby]

It's all in how much beer is in the fridge...

Here's the bet: Anyone here wanna bet I can't spend a pleasant afternoon with some friends at a fabrication shop and NOT get a double action Ruger 44 mag to cycle and fire all the rounds in the cylinder with one initial pull of the trigger?

Bring beer!

Seriously, would you all disbelieve someone couldn't come up with a way to make a Remington 700 to cycle the bolt and fire 'til the magazine is empty?

All ya have to do is add beer...

 

[Hk91 Fan]

This is the first time I have ever been saddened by a discussion on THR. In fact, I am sickened by some of the comments here. A select few of you may want to consider heading over to the ASHA forums - they support incrementalist firearm regulation, as well. Additionally, I'm sure some of them also maintain feelings of wealth envy...

I have never wanted to pull out the "WildputafewofyouonmyignorelistcauseyousuckAlaska" button before now. Thankfully, most of the members here are able to discuss this issue logically, and are concerned for their fellow firearm enthusiasts rights and property.

 

[Outlaws]

*zapped*

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Outlaws :

I think Hechler & Koch support a lot of that regulation too. Maybe you might wanna find something else to be a fanboy of. Some of us might think "wrong" in your opinion, but you are the one supporting it with your money. Now who is the bad guy?
Today 08:27 AM

Give the guy some credit, he didn't wander in here on a gimpy leg praising Glocks...

 

[Prince Yamato]

So, do you all think there'd be this much hullaballoo if the ATF decided to ban Hell-Fire Triggers?

 

[harvester of sorrow]

Maybe you might wanna find something else to be a fanboy of.

Although, to his credit, he says he is an "HK91fan," not an "HK'scorporatepolicyfan."

but you are the one supporting it with your money

Unless he's only buying them on the secondary market.

 

[Outlaws]

I would like to with draw my last comment on the account he seems to be a level headed person actually.

 

[wetwrks]

Adding fuel to the fire:

Akins uses a mechanical means of accelerating the rate of fire.

How is this any different from a gattling system. It also uses a mechanical (but different) means of accelerating the rate of fire. The ATF has for years declaired that a gattling gun is not a MG.

 

[tyme]

This ruling is ridiculous. It doesn't matter whether the gun (trigger) is moving towards the shooter's finger or whether the finger is moving towards the trigger. That just depends on frame of reference. Either way something is pressing on the trigger (and the trigger presses on something in return) for each shot fired; therefore this thing is not a machine gun.

ATF idiots need to learn basic physics and basic English.

 

[BamBam-31]

Funny. This whole thing sounds SOOOOO much like CA's off-list lowers issue, what with the DOJ trying to write...er, interpret law to cover its butt.

 

[cpileri]

according to the website...

Update 12/15/06--

Allegations are being posted on the Web about ATF Agents showing up on customer doorsteps and confiscating product. This is not happening. Please consult the company webpage http://www.firefaster.com/ regularly and treat it as your only reliable source of information. All updates will be made to this page first.

Attorneys for Akins Group Inc. have submitted a written Compliance Plan which is under review by ATF. Upon agreement on the details by all parties, those instructions will be posted here.

If accepted by ATF, that Compliance Plan will contain instructions which, if followed by consumers, will eliminate the need for any face-to-face interaction with any law enforcement people from any agency.

 

[Orthonym]

Reminds me of Beretta's latest autoloading shotgun, with the funny spring in the bolt. It seems to use the resiliency of the shooter's shoulder as part of the operating system. I betcha if you held the butt of one of those against a solid wall, it wouldn't cycle the action. Anybody tried that?

 

[Orthonym]

Or Bennelli, maybe.