ATF's Move to Justice Dept. Worries Both Sides of Gun Debate

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Drizzt

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January 10, 2003 Friday

SECTION: Washington, General News

LENGTH: 1041 words

HEADLINE: ATF'S MOVE TO JUSTICE DEPT. WORRIES BOTH SIDES OF GUN DEBATE

BYLINE: EUNICE MOSCOSO

DATELINE: WASHINGTON

BODY:
A government plan to move the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) to the Department of Justice has both sides of the gun debate worried.

Some gun owners, already skeptical of the Bush administration's efforts to monitor the activity of citizens, fear that the change could increase surveillance and make big government even bigger. Meanwhile, proponents of gun control are concerned that Attorney General John Ashcroft's support gun rights will translate into a watered-down ATF.

"We are extremely concerned that he (Ashcroft) would bring his pro-gun ideology to bear on how ATF carries out its responsibilities," said Mathew Nosanchuk, litigation director for the Violence Policy Center, a gun control group in Washington. "If ever the fox would be guarding the hen-house." Nosanchuk said that the ATF is already "a toothless tiger" when it comes to regulating firearms and that giving Ashcroft a "license to meddle" would result in actions that are more favorable to the gun industry.

But many gun owners _ who have long felt contempt for the ATF's law enforcement role _ have a completely different perspective on Ashcroft because of his support for what they see as invasions of privacy and infringements on the rights of law-abiding citizens in the name of homeland security.

"Many of us hoped that Mr. Ashcroft would use the Constitution to interpret his mission as attorney general. We have been sorely disappointed," said Ken Bagby, a gun owner from Shelby, N.C.

The ATF, which regulates firearms and explosives, has been in the Department of the Treasury for decades, but will move to the Department of Justice as part of a massive government restructuring that includes the creation of a Department of Homeland Security.

ATF officials said that concerns about the agency's move are much ado about nothing.

"I can't see any change in policies and procedures," said Jim Crandall, a spokesman for the agency. "ATF has through the years enforced the law as it was given to us...the law and the regulations are not easily changed."

In fact, ATF employees will not move to another location when they switch departments, Crandall said.

In addition, he pointed out that gun owners are not on any national database that might be shared with the Department of Justice.

"We don't register guns. Congress has been specific on that," he said. "I don't know of anyone who would be arrogant or stupid enough to go against Congress when they've specifically said that there will be no national gun registration."

The bulk of ATF employees _ about 4,600 people _ will be transferred to the Department of Justice by the end of this month, including all those who work in the area of firearms and explosives. The move will split the agency in two, with about 500 employees remaining in a new Tax and Trade Bureau that will deal with regulation and taxation of the alcohol and tobacco industries.

Other law enforcement organizations within the Treasury Department, including the Secret Service, will soon move to the new Department of Homeland Security.

The new department, which will include nearly two dozen agencies, was established to better protect the nation's borders and infrastructure from terrorists, a task that has proved controversial.

Many security efforts since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks have found opposition on both sides of the political spectrum, including the outspoken and powerful National Rifle Association.

NRA Executive Director Wayne LaPierre blasted the administration in a major speech last year, saying that airport security efforts made "women cringe as security men let their wands linger between their legs."

In addition, LaPierre criticized government attempts to monitor citizens through developing technologies such as fingerprinting, optical scanners and security cameras that can scan and identify facial features.

"The danger isn't that Big Brother may storm the castle gates. The danger is that Americans don't realize that he is already inside the castle walls," he said.

In addition, conservative politicians have weighed in on the controversy, including strong supporters of President Bush, such as former Rep. Bob Barr of Georgia and former House majority leader Richard Armey of Texas.

In fact, Barr will be a consultant for the American Civil Liberties Union which shares his concerns about privacy. And Armey also considered working for the civil rights group before accepting a position with a large lobbying firm.

Barr and Armey represent a right-wing rebellion of sorts against Ashcroft and the Bush administration, who had enjoyed blanket support from conservatives prior to Sept. 11.

Of particular concern are new powers granted in the Patriot Act that allow the government broader discretion to monitor computer activity and phone conversations in criminal investigations. In addition, many on the right are worried about a Pentagon program that would collect large amounts of information on citizens _ including bank statements and credit card purchases _ in an effort to find patterns common to terrorists.

"Our government will use the 'protection angle' as an excuse to step all over the rights of the citizens," Bagby said, echoing a growing sentiment in the gun rights community.

But Ashcroft has also won praise from gun owners and the NRA for his stance on the Second Amendment.

He delighted gun rights advocates early in his term by sending a letter to the NRA, stating that the amendment's original intent protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms.

The administration's stance on the issue _ which countered previous court rulings that favored a "collective right" of state military forces _ has fueled legal challenges against weapons bans and ire from gun control advocates across the country.

Meanwhile, the NRA, which once labeled ATF agents as "jack-booted thugs"_ has not weighed in on the ATF's move to Ashcroft's Department of Justice, saying only that it would monitor the situation.

"We're adopting a wait and see attitude," said spokesman Andrew Arulanandam (cq).

On the Web:

National Rifle Association: www.nra.org

Department of Justice: www.usdoj.gov

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms: www.atf.treas.gov
 
The time to be concerned about this move is long past. It's a done deal. Now all that is needed is another fair, honest, constitutionally upstanding attorney general like the Butcher of Waco and the ATF will no longer be a threat, they'll be your worst nightmare.

As rife as corruption and political skulduggery was in the WJC administration, I would bet the NCICs database was mirrored. This could very well explain some of the missing and vandalized computers discovered during the change of administrations as die-hard leftist supporters absconded with that information to use at a later time when power was regained.

Do not construe this to think that I am foolish enough to trust Asscraft or Jorge W. Arbustos, they are a bit more discreet in their exercise of tyranny.

Chipper
 
Do not construe this to think that I am foolish enough to trust Asscraft or Jorge W. Arbustos, they are a bit more discreet in their exercise of tyranny.
And it's not even a full moon yet.

"He delighted gun rights advocates early in his term by sending a letter to the NRA, stating that the amendment's original intent protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms."

I don't think this was a suggestion from the outgoing Butcher of Waco...
 
"We don't register guns. Congress has been specific on that," he said. "I don't know of anyone who would be arrogant or stupid enough to go against Congress when they've specifically said that there will be no national gun registration."

As I recall, Congress was all for a national registry. It was the SCOTUS that said no.

Is this guy stupid or clever?

lapidator
 
Ya know... the more i think about this, the more i am cautiously optimistic.

Was not the ATF created by the NFA'34?

Was not the ATF created as a "tax enforcement" group, as opposed to a "gun law enforcement" group? And has this not been argued in court, as a means of skirting the Constituiton?

Does this not constitute a change of charter for the ATF, nolonger a wing of the Treasury?

Does this give us an open door to someday challenge the ATF (and perhaps NFA'34) under the 2nd?

Have i completely lost my marbles?

lapidator
 
Under Ashcroft, I'm not too worried but there's no guarantee that succeeding Directors will be as enlightened as Ashcroft is. Therefore, I'm worried. :(
 
Lapidator said:
As I recall, Congress was all for a national registry. It was the SCOTUS that said no.

You couldn't be more incorrect. Congress says no gun "registry." So what is the HUGH databank at ATF's National Tracing Center in West Virginia full of 4473 data? ATF has us all but since it's indexed under the gun not under your name, some how this is OK. Bureaucratic doublethink at its best.
 
Meanwhile, the NRA, which once labeled ATF agents as "jack-booted thugs"_ has not weighed in on the ATF's move. . . .
A question regarding fact. Did the NRA actually say it?

IIRC the term was coined by none other than Representative for Life John Dingel (D-MI). But I was not aware the NRA either in print or in verbage has used the terminology.

I just had to ask since the press is such a stickler for factual details.
 
IIRC LaPierre did indeed use the term back around '89.

As for ATF and Justice, it should be interesting when Hillary assumes the office of president, along with her Dem CONgress in 2008. But hey, that's just tinfoil hat stuff...right?
 
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