Atheist group objects to inclusion of "steel cross" at WTC memorial

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Revlar, you are apparently missing the sarcasm in GRD's post, which was well deserved. You commented on the presence of a devil symbol but not an angel one. Are you aware of whether or not an angel symbol is even available? I've never seen one. If you'd care to provide one, it might make it. You didn't offer to do so, however, and instead maybe a back-handed slur against the owner/administrators of the board. That's what GRD was responding to.
 
Re the THR policy on religion threads.

No, this does not reflect any religious bias one way or another on the part of the moderators. Among the mods are Christians (including our Honorary Chaplain -- Preacherman), atheists, agnostics, a kinda-sorta pagan, and I'm sure I'm missing someone in there as I don't think we've ever actually taken a headcount.

The reason religious threads (among others) get closed down is because of EXACTLY what is starting to happen here. Namely, the discussion inevitably degenerates into a "well you're a religious nazi trying to force me to worship like you/no, you're an amoral aetheist ruining our Godly Nation" manure shoveling contest.

After numerous bad experiences along these lines, the decision was made to just prematurely close 'em before they got that far.

The reason for THAT is because we're all supposed to be on the same side. Tell me how it helps RKBA for our members to be at each other's throats over this kinda thing.

Now.. I'll break with tradition a little here and say that particular policy is one I'm not particularly thrilled with. I'd LIKE to see people here be able to discuss spirituality as it pertains to RKBA or L&P issues -- but as long as religious-based threads continue to degenerate into schoolyard fights, they WILL be summarily closed at THR and with good reason.

Now -- tell y'all what. Prove the mods wrong here. Prove that we all CAN discuss these matters civilly, without falling from The High Road and taking knives to each other's character over this. Though we've not discussed it, I think I can say for the others that if and when that happens, the THR staff will be amenable to lifting said ban.

(bans in general rub most all of us here the wrong way, after all. ;) )

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
 
Oh, Lord, am I tired of hearing people say that crosses, Christmas trees and the like are not really religious symbols.

A cross is a Christian symbol. Remember, Jesus died on the cross, and it became, you know, the predominant symbol of the religion?

To most, the cross symbolizes a final resting place as much as it does a particular religion
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Yeah, that's why you see so many crosses in Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist cemetaries. Oh, wait, no, you don't. Because it's a CHRISTIAN SYMBOL.

I don't have the legal background or specific knowledge to determine whether the memorial site is private or govenment property.

But it shouldn't matter. Why would even a private entity disrespect the wide range of religious backgrounds of the victims by memorializing them with a Christian symbol?

Matt
 
IMHO, a couple of Iron workers most likely torched off the unsymetrical parts to the "cross".

Still as a "Found Art Object" its very impressive

they also made a really nice concrete base for it:
 

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buzz_knox - No, I did not miss GRD'S sarcasm. But, it would seem, mine (regarding the devil smilie) WAS missed (and yes, an angel smilie does exist)

Kaylee - Thank you for the clarification, and most especially, for the open-mindedness. THAT's what I was looking for and you did not let me down.
 
heres another picture from last July

Please surf the Memorial website, i worked on for the St. Paul's hospice:
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0209/st_pauls/online_extra.html

The group opposed to the "Cross" most likely did not donate any effort to the disaster recovery. I saw people from every walk of life selflessly working at the hole.

the VR pictures of all the artwork sent in by school kids will bring a tear to your eye.
 

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Revlar,

If your bit about the angel was sarcastic, then my remark to you was undeserved and I apologize...although I did think it was funny. However, I believe you'll find the this board does not have any kind of 'anti-faith' agenda, and any comments of yours that insinuate such are misplaced.

- Gabe
 
This agnostic person thinks it is crazy to remove the cross that others put up, or atleast fixed up. It is not like our tax dollars went to making it out of nothing.

As for the cemetary, aren't the individual graves, or at least tombstones private property? Shouldn't people be able to say anything they want on them?
 
Oh, Lord, am I tired of hearing people say that crosses, Christmas trees and the like are not really religious symbols.
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Really? So when an atheist says "oh my god" have they now converted to a particular religion? Bull. And Christmas trees have no religious significance at all. The holiday used to but the tree doesn't.

Why would even a private entity disrespect the wide range of religious backgrounds of the victims by memorializing them with a Christian symbol?
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You didn't read the article, did you? The cross was created by happenstance, as the last remnant of the towers still standing. The rescue workers used the last vestige of the towers as a place to memorialize their friends and co-workers who died, regardless of religion. Their act is what turned it into a memorial, not the shape of the beams. Why would anyone want to destroy that monument to the love and honor shown to the fallen?
 
"Why would even a private entity disrespect the wide range of religious backgrounds of the victims by memorializing them with a Christian symbol?"

That immediately assumes that the cross would be placed there with the sole purpose of showing disrespect to the non-Christians who died. It wouldn't be. It also wouldn't be the only item in the memorial, it would be part of the whole.

Using that logic, it could be said that displaying the American flag at the memorial would be a sign of disrespect to those who died who were not American citizens.
 
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Oh, Lord, am I tired of hearing people say that crosses, Christmas trees and the like are not really religious symbols.
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maybe, maybe not...

One could make a pretty valid case that the cross is a secularized symbol, nowadays. It really depends on the intention of its placement in a public forum. That's what the whole Alabama brouhaha was about, really. In a nutshell, my position is thus:

A religious symbol presented for a secular reason - it's a valuable relic, it's historically significant, or it's representational of some secular aspect, like a art period or what have you, is fine. This particular example clearly qualifies.

A religious symbol presented for a religious reason (like the Ten Com. in Alabama, or a huge wooden crucifix in the middle of the City Hall grounds) is NOT fine; it violates the 1st amendment (or the 1st by way of the 14th, depending on what level of gubmint we're talking about)

Regardless, the real people who should be offended here are the vampires . Everybody knows crosses are dangerous to them. Won't someone think of the undead!!!

:rolleyes:
 
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"Christmas tree..."

It's a lot more secular than a cross.

Germanic tribes were worshiping evergreens and other trees thousands of years ago. St. Boniface is supposed to have made the connection between the evergreen and the everlasting life that could be had through the acceptance of Christ.

Decorating trees at Christmas time didn't become popular in Germany until the 1500s, and apparently didn't really spread out to other parts of Europe, such as England, until Victorian times when Prince Albert, consort to Queen Victoria, erected a tree in the family palace.

In Germany, it was apparently even common for Jewish families to bring evergreen trees into the home during the winter. Today, I know more than one Jewish family that has a Christmas tree, but with a twist... They decorate it with symbols more appropriate to their faith -- where they got the Star of David and Dredle twinkle lights is completely beyond me, but they've got them.

German immigrants brought the tradition to the United States, where it caught on faster than in Europe, apparently because it was easier to get pine trees in the United States.

Today Christmas trees are so much a generic symbol of the season that they really aren't much more religious than Rudolph or Frosty.
 
AHEM

Remember the part about "Prove the mods wrong here. Prove that we all CAN discuss these matters civilly, without falling from The High Road and taking knives to each other's character over this."

I just removed a slew of personal attacks and baiting comments, and the replies -- both reasoned and not. Now, I'll admit the paring was difficult, and I tried to be as impartial as possible. Regardless, to all I've offended there -- I'm sorry.

I'm not going to strip out any more catfights in this thread. If anything like it continues, the thread goes down, and the ban stays in force.

Let me reiterate -- IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS THIS KIND OF ISSUE ON THR, DO NOT ATTACK YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS.


-K
 
"And a comparison like that makes you no better than the person you protest against. Actually, such an insult makes you far worse in my eyes."

Oh, you support one brand of religious extremism, but not others? Simply because he wants to curbstomp 'unbelievers' in this country, instead of beating/shooting/torturing/etc them in other countries? Pat Robertson is somehow better than than a bin Laden when he says that 'We must take back America for Christ' when the other is promising to bathe this country in the blood of unbelievers?
 
OK, Kaylee, as the originator of this thread, I'm asking you to close it.

I had hoped that we could discuss this like adults; obviously I was sadly mistaken.



Just as an aside...

"Thanks alot MOD. What was I baiting? Freedom of speech is not allowed here or something?"

No, Coldshot, you do NOT.

This is a private board, not a governmental entity. As such, the owner of the board and/or his agents have the right to limit discussion in any way that they see fit.



I'll say this now...

Grow the :cuss: up, people.
 
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