Augh! Orion 7 isn't selling Garands anymore!

Status
Not open for further replies.
N

Nightcrawler

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
6,950
Location
Utah, inside the Terraformed Zone
According to their website, Orion 7 Enterprises has suspended sales of M1 Garand rifles "until further notice".

MAN! That's just my luck. I was planning on buying a Select Grade when I got home from Qatar... :(

(Just add P....)
 
Last edited:
They have been saying for quite awhile that parts are getting increasingly hard to find and what not......also the rising prices being an issue.

So, hopefully after a certain period of time Orion will start up again.
 
Last edited:
Wow!!! there web site says parts only,no more shop services of any kind due to insurance and liability issues.
 
I said REbuilt.

I want my M1 to have a new stock, a new barrel, and as many brand new, made-with-modern-metallurgy parts as possible.

Besides Fulton, does anybody offer M1s with my desired upgrades (don't really want a .308, but I do want a new barrel, stock, and as many new parts as I can get)?
 
Have also heard good things about Dean's Gun Restorations.
If I had the cash to spiff up any of my M1's, I'd try Dean.

Scott Duff places M1's, Carbines, etc. for sale on his site.
 
I want my M1 to have a new stock, a new barrel, and as many brand new, made-with-modern-metallurgy parts as possible.
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from, but it's not as simple as that.

You can get a new stock from Boyd's, but it will be oversize and you'll have to put in many hours work to trim to fit. No problem though if you're willing to do the work.

You can get a new barrel with no problem. New standard weight, medium weight and heavy match barrels are available from several vendors in both .30-'06 and .308/7.62 NATO.

The real problem though comes when you ask for "...and as many brand new, made-with-modern-metallurgy parts as possible."

To be honest, the few new parts that do exist are substandard when compared to original USGI spec parts. Original bolts were machined from ordanance steel; new bolts are cast. Original receivers were drop forged and made to correct specs; new receivers are usually (always?) cast and are typically not dimensionally accurate. Off-spec receivers pose a safety risk because they can have insufficient bolt lug lock-up due to the improper tolerances.

In a nutshell, with the exception of barrels, and possibly stocks, there are NO new Garand parts that meet the quality of the original parts in terms of design, materials and dimensional accuracy.

There is nothing wrong with the design, tolerances and metallurgy of the orginal USGI Garand parts. The only problem with using GI parts is that you need to avoid using overly worn or modified out-of-spec parts in your rifle.

Good original parts are getting scarce, but they are still out there if you hunt and you'd be much better off with them then you would with newly produced cast parts that may or may not in spec.

Personally, I'd reccomend getting a Garand through the CMP. Order a U.S. Service Grade rifle and the CMP will stand behind it and replace any parts that may be worn out of spec or otherwise damaged.

If you want, you can even use the gun as a glorified "kit" and have someone put on a new barrel or stock or accurize the gun to your specs. You'll still be better off then buying a new production gun with a new non-USGI receiver and a mix of cast parts and used USGI parts of unknown provenance.

Really, the quality and worksmanship of the 50+ year old parts on USGI Garands is much better then anything new you'll find today.
 
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what difference does it make if the receiver and bolt are cast?

Is a 60+ year old forged receiver any stronger than a brand new cast receiver?

Basically, I want an M1, but I don't want a worn out piece of junk. I don't want a full-of-history collector's item that I'll feel bad about putting through hard use. And I do'nt want something with a shot out barrel, worn springs, and a crappy stock, receiver cracking from old age, whatever, you know?

I want something that'll last me a lifetime, if you follow me, not something that's already at the end of it's service life.

I really do't have the skill to fit and refinish a stock, install a barrel, whathaveyou.
 
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what difference does it make if the receiver and bolt are cast?
Click to expand...

The specifications for the M-1 Garand call for a forged receiver that is machined to certain precise tolerances. It is very difficult to reverse engineer a cast receiver for the Garand that is dimensionally correct and that will be as strong as the original forged receiver. For safety reasons, the tolerances MUST be maintained. Improper tolerances quickly erode the margain of safety built into the design and you run the risk of incomplete bolt lock-up, among other issues.

Go to www.fulton-armory.com and look at his tech reports of commercial Garand receivers.

A rifle can be designed to use cast parts, but for best results it needs to be designed around that manufacturing process from the beginning. For example, the Ruger Mini-14 was designed to be manufactured with a cast receiver and cast bolt (among other parts) and those parts were designed differently then if they were intended to be forged and machined.

For the Garand, a cast receiver will not have the strength of a forged receiver and will typically also have dimensional problems as well. A cast Garand bolt is much more likely to break then a forged and machined bolt.

Is a 60+ year old forged receiver any stronger than a brand new cast receiver?
Click to expand...

Yes, the 50 - 60 + year old USGI spec forged receiver will be stronger then a brand new cast receiver. The USGI receiver will also be in-spec. (This does assume that the receiver is in good shape, as most are, and also isn't a 1960's commercial reweld)

Basically, I want an M1, but I don't want a worn out piece of junk. I don't want a full-of-history collector's item that I'll feel bad about putting through hard use. And I do'nt want something with a shot out barrel, worn springs, and a crappy stock, receiver cracking from old age, whatever, you know?
Click to expand...

Yep, I do understand that you want a rifle you can use, and use hard if need be, and not just look at.

Trust me, buy a US Service Grade rifle from the CMP. You won't get a really collectable piece that's too valuable to shoot. What you will get is a rifle that's been rebuilt, possibly several times, and that has also been reinspected by the CMP for servicability before being sent to you. All the "worn out piece of junk" rifles are culled out during the evaluation process.

While there aren't any guarantee's, there is still a good chance that you'll get one of the M-1's rebuilt in the '60's that saw very little service since then. These often have new barrels and make great shooters.

At worst, you'll get a servicable rifle. The CMP stands by their rifles, so in the unlikely event that you get a rifle with a "shot out" barrel, or a damaged muzzle, call the CMP and they will make it right.

The worst thing about a CMP rifle is generally the stock. Some are nice, some are ugly, but all are servicable. If you get a nice one, just rub a couple coats of boiled linseed oil on it because it will be dried out from storage and call it good. If it's ugly, either refinish it yourself, have someone else do it, or get either a different GI stock or a new stock. There are several people out there who will either refinish your GI stock for you or sell you one they've already done for a good price. (You can also get a new commercial stock, but then you have to fit it, which is a pain)

I will say that if you shoot your Garand a lot, you will probably want to replace the op-rod spring. I've never had a problem with any of mine, but I will probably put a new spring in the rifle I shoot the most, just to be safe. It's a $5 part that takes 5 minutes to replace.

I want something that'll last me a lifetime, if you follow me, not something that's already at the end of it's service life.
Click to expand...

To be honest, you are much more likely to get a Garand that will last you a lifetime by buying a CMP rifle then you are by buying a commercially produced rifle with a new, cast receiver.

In addition to the cast receivers and certain cast parts, those "new" rifles are built up with old GI parts that were sold as surplus over the years. These parts may or may not be servicable and in spec (reparking hides a multitude of sins).

In contrast, all the parts the CMP use came from the military supply system (usually as part of a complete rifle) and are checked by the CMP. If a bad part slips through, they replace it.


I really do't have the skill to fit and refinish a stock, install a barrel, whathaveyou.
Click to expand...

Neither do I. The good news is that with a CMP rifle, you won't need to. The only reason you'd want to install a new barrel is if you wanted to go to a different caliber or wanted to upgrade your gun to a match rifle with a commercial barrel. In that case, there are many commercial smiths happy to do the work for you.

Yes, you might want to refinish the stock, but that's purely a cosmetic issue and isn't hard to do if you decide to do it . At the very least you'd be amazed what a good cleaning with Murphy's Oil Soap followed by a few coats of boiled linseed oil will do.

Personally, I've only refinished the stock of one of my CMP rifles. After that I've either left them "as is" or just lightly washed them with gentle detergent and rubbed a coat or two of linseed oil on them.


One last thought: CMP Garands are an authentic piece of U.S. history. These are the actual military weapons once issued to our soldiers. Commercial Garands incorporate some GI parts, but at heart are just copies with no soul.
 
You make many valid points.

When I get home, I might go CMP. I think my time in the service negates having to participate in the match.

More likely, since i"ll have some money to kick around after a year in Qatar, I'll go whole-hog and get a rifle from Fulton Armory.

I wish somebody would start producing M1 Garands to original spec again. Even if they were expensive, people'd pay more for them willingly. (How much do folks shell out for genuine forged M14 type receivers, and rifles built on them?)

What's more, if I were to have my M1 Garand company, I'd go father with the design. I'd make one that was safe to shoot with commercial .30-06 ammunition, by incorporating an adjustable gas regulator (they have replacable gas nuts now, but something easier would be nice). It'd even be able to handle the 220 grain loads, to take full advantage of the versatility and power of .30-06.

I'd make a scaled up one in .300 Win Mag, that still had an 8-round enbloc clip. Maybe a further scaled up one in .338 Win.

You know what I think would be good for a Springfield new production M1, though? It'd be a good gun to have Smith Enterprises chop into an M1 Garand carbine, give a synthetic stock, and add an M1D flash hider like Oleg's little Garand Carbine. I'd take one of those in .308 in a heartbeat, and you wouldn't be chopping up a genuine GI rifle.
 
Well, It seems everything has been said above.
Definitely consider the CMP. I have three Garands, an M1903, M1903A3, and a 513T all from the CMP. None came with pristine wood, but all serviceable stocks, so I have not replaced them. The parts and receivers were all solid. I did replace the oprod springs in the M1's with Orion 7 SS springs. All are great shooters & capable of more accuracy than I am.
The CMP site details the Inspection process, including test firing, of each M1. They do a great job, and stand behind what they sell.
USGI Service Grade is the way to go, and SG Springfield is the shortest delivery time. I would recommend that you do not take a chance on the Greek return M1's, even though some have received good ones. There are just more "rough ones" in that batch from what's been posted.

Here's the CMP forum:
http://www.odcmp.org/forum/

Re: the New "Springfield-Armory" M1, some are happy with them, some are not. Seem a bit overpriced. And that "Springfield-Armory" is a commercial co., not the Springfield Armory of MA, closed in 1968.
 
When I get home, I might go CMP. I think my time in the service negates having to participate in the match.
Click to expand...

Yes, I believe your DD 214 (or equiv) fufills the marksmanship requirement. A CCW permit also works, as do a whole lot of other things.

You still need to belong to a CMP affiliated club though. The easiest way to do that is join the Garand Collector's Association for about $20 (?) a year.

More likely, since i"ll have some money to kick around after a year in Qatar, I'll go whole-hog and get a rifle from Fulton Armory.
Click to expand...

You may want to consider ordering the rifle from Fulton now. I understand the wait might be up to a year. The good news is he doesn't take any money until the rifle is ready to ship.

I wish somebody would start producing M1 Garands to original spec again. Even if they were expensive, people'd pay more for them willingly. (How much do folks shell out for genuine forged M14 type receivers, and rifles built on them?)
Click to expand...

No one will ever make Garand receivers to the original specs with the original process again. It's just too expensive and the market isn't there to support it. The ONLY reason people buy the mucho expensive forged M-14 clone receivers is because there are NO real M-14's available for civilains (well, ok, there's a handful of legally transferable M-14's out there, but darn few...)

With Garands, real rifles are available from the CMP and many other sources, so there really isn't the incentive to make an exact duplicate when the real thing can be obtained for a relatively low cost.

if I were to have my M1 Garand company, I'd go father with the design. I'd make one that was safe to shoot with commercial .30-06 ammunition, by incorporating an adjustable gas regulator (they have replacable gas nuts now, but something easier would be nice). It'd even be able to handle the 220 grain loads, to take full advantage of the versatility and power of .30-06.

I'd make a scaled up one in .300 Win Mag, that still had an 8-round enbloc clip. Maybe a further scaled up one in .338 Win.
Click to expand...

There is a gunsmith out there who rebuilds M-1 Garands and rechambers them in calibers including .338 Win. I believe that particular model only holds five shots though. He also has an adjustable gas system mod for the Garand. I saw him in a gun rag about a year or so back and a net search should turn him up.

You know what I think would be good for a Springfield new production M1, though? It'd be a good gun to have Smith Enterprises chop into an M1 Garand carbine, give a synthetic stock, and add an M1D flash hider like Oleg's little Garand Carbine. I'd take one of those in .308 in a heartbeat, and you wouldn't be chopping up a genuine GI rifle.
Click to expand...

Nice idea, but I still wouldn't do it for safety reasons. I just don't trust ANY aftermarket receiver to have the correct geometry. Incomplete locking on the bolt lugs is bad ju-ju.

If I was going to do a shorty "tanker" build, or some uber-tactial "modernized" Garand, I'd buy one of the $300 Greek lend-lease return Garands from the CMP. I'd send the whole thing off to a smith for rebarelling and rebuilding into whatever weird config I wanted. Yes, I'm a collector, but there isn't a lot of collector interest in rebuilt Greek Garand that needs a new barrel anyway.
 
How hard can it be to manufacture a Garand reciever that's as good as the orginal? I mean, the surplus ones will dry up eventually.

If they could mass produce these things in wartime, surely they can be made as a commercial venture now?

As for cast vs. forged, couldn't the same be said of the M14 rifle types? Is the M1A really an inferior rifle, when compared to the GI M14?
 
How hard can it be to manufacture a Garand reciever that's as good as the orginal? I mean, the surplus ones will dry up eventually.
Click to expand...

It could be done, if the original manufacturing procedures (machined forged billets) were used and it was held to the original specs.

Between the CMP, the rifles already out on the surplus market and the new commercial receivers, there just isn't enough demand for anyone to go out and spend the money to make new receivers and parts to the old specs with the correct methods. Most shooters don't understand the difference between the new receivers and the GI receivers and, to be honest, the new receivers will hold well enough for the limited shooting that most people will use them for.

If they could mass produce these things in wartime, surely they can be made as a commercial venture now?
Click to expand...

There are a lot of things that are viable in war time that don't work in the civilain market.

It's a heck of a lot cheaper to tool up to make MILLIONS of receivers and parts for the government then to make just a few thousand for civilians.
You just can't get the economy of scale that makes it economically profitable with a small production run. Not to mention that labor costs are proportionally higher now (in real terms). By today's standards, the Garand was very labor intentsive and required skilled machinests of the type that are few and far between today. CNC is great for some things, but works best with parts that were designed for CNC procedures from the get go.

Economically, the only way a forged receiver Garand, made to the original specs and with correct machined parts, could be made is if it was done in China because of the low labor costs there.

As for cast vs. forged, couldn't the same be said of the M14 rifle types? Is the M1A really an inferior rifle, when compared to the GI M14?
Click to expand...

Yes, the M1A is inferior when compared to the USGI M-14. Unfortunately, it's as close as most of us are going to get to a real M-14 and works well enough to be acceptable. There is a reason that people replace the cast bolts and other parts in later M1A's with GI machined parts though and why those with deep pockets pay extra for forged and machined receivers instead of using Springfield, Inc.s' cast receivers.

The Chinese PolyTech and Norinco M-14 clone receivers are forged and machined and are actually prefered by many over the Springfield receiver. (The other parts are so - so though, especially the bolt)
 
I'd make one that was safe to shoot with commercial .30-06 ammunition, by incorporating an adjustable gas regulator (they have replacable gas nuts now, but something easier would be nice).
Click to expand...

My understanding is that shooting commercial .30-06 in the Garand is fine, as long as the bullet weight is 150gr or less.

Is this a correct statement?
 
From what I've heard, you can't shoot anything that outperforms .308 ball ammunition. Which, to my mind, is a waste; in the M1 you have the .30-06 cartridge, with bullet weights from 110 grains to 220 grains, and all that case capacity. You also have a 24" barrel in which to take advantage of the extra oomph that .30-06 can muster over .308, and yet the action of the design can't handle it, apparently, without some kind of special gas nut (or whatever it's called) that will vent excess gas and not damage the op-rod.

There is a .338 Win Mag Garand out there, made by a custom house. It no longer uses enbloc clips, though (as evidenced by the scope mount I saw) and has only a five round capacity. I would just deepen the magazine well and make a bigger, eight round enbloc clip to go with it (If I were going to manufacture M1s from scratch anyway). :cool:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

762x51
  • Locked
Orion 7 Garand - Pics Inside
Replies
5
Views
945
cabinetman
C
N
  • Locked
M1 Garand: questions
Replies
7
Views
1K
Jim K
J
N
  • Locked
Just might be getting me one of these...
Replies
4
Views
788
rock jock
R
J
  • Locked
Garand Purchase, or These Rifles Are Gettin' Friggin Expensive!
Replies
7
Views
1K
ScottsGT
S
P
  • Locked
M1 Garand from CMP: Some Assorted Questions for the Enlightened Ones out there!
Replies
12
Views
3K
skidooman603
S
Back
Top