Awerbuck/ITTS shottie class report

[Gordon]

Last weekend on the LAPD Metro range with Lewis Awerbuck and Scott Reitz was most enlightening!
The shottie RULES for close encounters of the most serious kind.!

Buckshot is not an effective antipersonnel load beyond 25 yards MAX , out of a GOOD barrel and is very DANGEROUS to 200 yards or more!

A good barrel for buckshot can be ANY barrel off the shelf, from Cyl to mod in choke and is VERY Brand and load sensitive- more than any gun type I've seen! The best patterns by far were from a guy with an discount 870 express!

Rifled slugs RULE for everything I can think of other than worrying about thru and thru penetration in an apartment situation.

I CAN keep all my Rem Managed recoil Sluggers on a torso to 100 meters!
I Can keep all my slugs in your brain to 25 yards! MAYBE 50 yards- but I don't like maybes and I said ALL slugs.

Wonder of wonders a 12.5" Stock was PERFECT and DID NOT beat me up in 500 rounds- even from prone! Trick was to pocket it TIGHTLY!
870's rule the roost, even miss fed you can beat them into working!
Mossies 500 and 590 are viable.
Rem 1100's gave people problems
Benelli's Autos , from Marine Corp issue to M-1, M-4 Super 90's and what ever gave trouble -often VERY Scary!
My Benelli Nova, which they let me switch to the 2nd day has some problems so that I switched back to the good old 870 in a few hours. The problems were the front of trigger guard safety placement- not as safe and easy as behind the trigger! The lower loading port closed when action open was not cool- for me. The 14 pound trigger is rediculous, the looooong action stroke is ungainly as is the 14" stock length that will be very hard to shorten. It is wonderfully accurate with slugs- I got one hole groups at 75 yards (2-3")! It had very good buckshot patters too (I was using Rem Low recoil 00 buck)
Single point slings, especially with quick detachable buckles are really the HEAT, no sling binding forearm for me! Much easier and better balance all around! I think other users envied us with "team slings"
You GOT to have a dedicated light (IE surefire forend) on a pump gun and it is good to have on an auto. The pressure switch is not neccessary when firing(it blinks off under recoil sometimes) and putting it on on or off is better. The M-3 on the Nova factory mount or same on the Auto Benelli's was fine!If I build another 870 I will use the Sure fire pic rail foreend with a a Surefire Milennium combat light.
My shotgun pouch I had REECCE wear make was perfect BUT the load from the side saddle is the way to go- until thats empty! we had up to 50 shells on our person!
Brass to the top of the Side saddle and loading the open port from underneath with gun turned on it's axis to right is the way to go. But the bottom feed with enough room in mag is the way to "select slug".
Bead sights are ok IF they are on target ! Not much you can do to correct if they aren't. NOBODY hit the 110 yard target with a bead sight.
Scott Reitz is the ultimate DI ! His 180 popper course is a REAL workout -especially at night. Louis is , well, Yoda!
I qualified with a 96% on the LAPD course, BUT am more proud of my performance on the 180 Workout !
Bottom line the combination of Lewis Awerbuck and Scott Reitz (ITTS) is the ULTIMATE tactical shotgun course; the synergy between these two instructors is far and above ANY other instruction I've ever had and it pushed my body and mind (and equiptment) to it's limits.
My new name is "Run the bolt Gordon"

 

[sm]

Worth a float for a few days IMO.

Gordon-

An excellent , informative post!

Folks would learn from reading your post many times. Bookmark it, make a copy...I'm serious. Again thanks!

Regards,

Steve

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Good post!

I actually wanted to attend the very same class that you speak of, but the time crunch at work told me otherwise. Bummer, really. We could've been shooting side by side.

Awerbuck's class is definately on my "to do" list after the wedding.

-Jim

 

[Gordon]

Little things I forgot: The big equiptment failure on 870's was a high percentage(not mine) of the Surefire light foreends coming loose. Tighten them hard with a little blue Locktite!
Action bars got bent on a couple guys 870's.
Most common 870 failure was short shucking double feed (had this happen to me on long 180 course (37 rounds) during day.
A real bad jam, one that happened to guys next to me was feeding shell BACKWARD into mag tube, happened to a couple people - in an emergency you could force it down and still have a functioning gun. One guy managed to bring it all the way to chamber!
The Benelli autos, especially the new Marine issue ones, were scary unreliable! What is this US military fascination with Italian design weapons? Of course WHEN they ran , they were quick!
About half the class had shorter stocks, the other half wished they did! This shooting SURE wasn't bird shooting(or clay bird shooting!)
trapping the butt under the arm while loading the tube is the best way! You can still control the weapon here and it rests your firing arm muscles.
Once again I came away stoked with my 1200fps 1 oz. flat pointed forster slugs performance, I noticed other officers are issued the same ammo : Rem managed recoil Law Enforcement ammo. These things are quiet(!) hit flat to 100yards and give fast control . They weigh twice as much as and are going at 100 yards as fast as a .45 ball round does at the muzzle. NO doubt in my mind what the .75" flat gob of transsonic soft lead is gonna do when it hits. It is MUCH (40%) more controllable than a full power 1600fps slug. Only in bear country would I load Brenneke's again!
All the glued on front sights blew off! Silver solder or banded ones stayed on- of course. Ghost rings are the hot set up, but a couple guys did well with Remington rifle sights.
Class had 16 people. 9 870's , 1 Mossies, 2 1100's , 4 Benellis- all of which seemed VERY sensitive as were the 1100's. Lewis REALLY encouraged me to take next class with a Browning Auto Five (with good sights and short stock) he says that and a Win 97 are superior combat shotties-properly set up. I just may put Patridge sights and a ghost ring on mine with a 13" butt and a Pic rail and Surefire bolted onto foreend!

 

[Black Majik]

Wow. Very informative and interesting read!

Sounded like a fun course to take.

 

[sm]

Auto 5 does not get the favorable attention if rightly deserves. Those of us that have used them, usually shut up,keep quiet and grin.

Model 97- I agree with Awerbuck and others - this is a combat weapon. If Winchester was smart, and yes I know the price today would be high with machined parts, and the craftsmanship , metallurgy ...etc. Folks would buy them - I would!

I returned from Tulsa, I saw some 97's, these are sought after and used. Sure some are collected. Don't mean they are not being used tho'. Word is , all I saw would be sold by the time the show ended, some I did handle were in fact sold, customer (s) were going to return later and pick up. One fella bought 3.

 

[444]

Good post. Not that I am any kind of authority, but I agree with everything you said.

"His 180 popper course is a REAL workout -especially at night. "
We need details on this one.

I would love to take Louis's class. I have signed up for two of them and both were cancelled because not enough people signed up. The second time, the class was announced on this board as well as TFL and I was the ONLY one that actually sent in the money.
People, this is the shotgun guru. Louis is the man. You blew it.

When I took Gunsite 260, Louis was the rangemaster. I also have Louis as an instructor for Gunsite 556 (advanced carbine). But, I want to take his class away from Gunsite where he is calliing all the shots.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for posting this. NOTHING can substitute for instruction by a top notch instructor.

And, technology can never substitute for expertise.....

 

[Fred Fuller]

Gordon,

Thanks for posting your review and comments- I envy you the experience, I've wanted to make an Awerbuck class for years. I hope I can.

Yavapai (Awerbuck's school) runs a 'moveable feast' as they train on the road at various facilities all over the country. Anyone who is interested can find the schedule/locations at http://yfainc.com/schedule.htm to see if there is a venue near them. The training is among the best available.

There is another review of one of Awerbuck's classes posted at http://jtk3.com/laissezfirearm/shotgun.htm , this one from several years ago.

lpl/nc

 

[Gordon]

The "180" was 4 poppers ; 2 outside of peripheriral vision left and right(180 degrees+) at about 20 yards from shooter and 2 at at 10 and 2 oclock about 10 yards from shooter. With a full gun a low ready , Scott would have you engage all targets then start sweeping as he would raise how many whereever he wanted. All the while verbally harrassing you in front of the rest of your team (8 others) until you depleted the ammo load on your body. Of course he'd put up targets wheile you had to feed the gun! I had a double feed I had to clear on the first run, KEEP FIGHTING! I had 27 rounds of birdshot(what you shoot on this course) the first time. 37 rounds the 2nd run. and 27 rounds for the night run. This run, done agressively is a work out! For me pushing 60 it was all I could take, however I did well- when I "ran the bolt" after I would clean out the targets. I have a bad habit from hunting and clay games to not charge the gun after I think the problem is solved!

 

[dave3006]

On the Benellis - let's hear the details.

I have four M1S90s. Self defense and hunting. I have taken them quail, dove, chukar, and numerous tactical shotgun classes, ect. VERY few malfunctions. Occassionally, the bolt will not close all the way on a round you drop into the chamber on the initial loading. The bolt bounces back out of battery 1/100 times. During live fire it never jams.

The guys with the 870s end up short shucking their guns infinitely more than the Benelli chokes.

(This is my experience from about 10 days of shotgun classes and 8 years of hunting)

 

[Mesa Tactical]

On the Benellis - let's hear the details.

I was in the class with Gordon, and used a Benelli M4.

The gun worked flawlessly until the night of the second day. Then it started hanging up, with two kinds of failures:

1. The bolt would not return automatically. This was resolved during the drills by simply pressing up on the carrier with my thumb (as part of the normal follow-through exercise of checking the magazine).

2. The shell wouldn't feed. Sometimes nothing I could do would get the bolt to snap forward and a shell to feed. Lou and I would fool around with the gun for a moment or two until it would start working again.

We attributed these problems to lubrication and something up with the magazine tube.

When I lubed the gun the first couple times, I did the usual of oiling and then wiping so there was a thin film of oil on the surfaces. Well, this was not enough! We were running too many shells through the gun during the class to use this typical method. So on Saturday night I started just dripping the oil into the action and sliding the bolt back and forth. This helped a bit.

The magazine tube did tolerate some tightening on Sunday morning. Also, during the class I had an experimental barrel clamp on the gun (which held my light). Lou suggested this was causing the feeding failure as the Benellis have historically been sensitive to strains on the magazine tube (my clamp pushed against teh mag tube a bit). But on Sunday after I removed the clamp I still had the feed failures, so I'm not sure that's it.

I suspect all the problems I had could be attributed to not enough lube and a dirty gun.

Other than that, the Benelli M4 was a joy to use. And the 180 drill Gordon described above was a kick in the head (except when we did it at night).

 

[TrapperReady]

The problems were the front of trigger guard safety placement- not as safe and easy as behind the trigger!

Gordon - Could you please elaborate on this comment? I use Winchester Model 12s for a great deal of my hunting, and chose a 1300 Defender as an HD weapon specifically because of the location of the controls.

 

[dave3006]

So, it sounds like the Benelli problem was because the gun was dirty. The gas operated M4 would be more prone to those problems than the recoil operated M1S90. Gas systems are light recoiling, but dirty. The last class I was in, the guy with an 1187 had all sorts of troubles after about 100 rounds with his gun each day. I think there is a reason why the Benellis do so well in Argentina shooting 1000s of dove each day. They don't choke when they get dirty.

The army wanted a gas operated weapon was to allow them to hang things on it and shorten the stock. The recoil operated M1S90 can not do this so Benelli designed a gas gun.

Again, I have seen at least 10x as many people short shuck an 870 (instructors included) than see a recoil operated Benelli act up. Not to mention the terrible jam that can occur on an 870 when a shell in the magazine jumps the latches.

Dave

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

I'm a Benelli lover, that's for sure. However, this wasn't meant to be a Benelli vs. 870 thread.

 

[Gordon]

No but every Benelli, including Marine issue had weird problems, and I thought they were darn near bulletproof!
The forward safety requires reaching OVER the trigger to take off, and with RIGOROUS safety imposed that is sketchy. To apply the safety PROPERLY with the thumb of right hand requires reaching under the hot trigger where you can't see it! I personnaly don't feel good about this on a "tactical" gun.
I may have failed to mention the only troble we had with Surefire lights was the foreend loosening-locktite it! Two surefires "blew" because of non Surefire brand batteries!
I just got invited- and accepted to go to H.I.T.T.(High Intensity Tactical Training) shotgun/pistol class with Louis on 22 April 05 at Turlock Ca. -about 100 miles away. I can't pass up the opportunity to get more of those sugar crispies!! !

 

[DBR]

I own 3 Benellis. The Nova and the M3 have mag tube extensions on them. Both of them have had the mag spring hang up occasionally where the extension joins the end of the original tube. Both were fixed with careful deburring and sight flaring of the ends of the tubes.

 

[dave3006]

The Benelli M1S90 safety is the exact same as the 870.

 

[Gordon]

and that model works fine as does the m-4, but the nova is in front! :banghead:

 

[dave3006]

I see that the Nova could have problems. My buddy has one. I think the 870 is FAR superior.

I still have a hard time believing that the M1S90s were giving people problems. I can see the M4s and Novas choking. But, the M1S90s are rock solid unless people start hanging crap from them (sidesaddles, toaster ovens, ect..)

 

[Gunsnrovers]

Gordon, why would you go with the rail next time?

I keep looking at their class schedule (LAPD ranges are a stones throw) and once my back gets better and the doc gives me the all clear I will be attending one.

I promised myself a good shotgun and pistol course in 2004, but a jackhammer and a ladder had other plans for me.

 

[Gordon]

The rails on foreend are more versatile IMHO, you can use a flashlight between your rifle and carbine and even some pistons besides the shottie. I don't like long sessions of day time training with the Surefire light attached, I unscrewed mine and put in a plug, so you might as well slide one on and off. The pressure pad switch in practicality is over rated and a pain when shooting, mine was half blocked off anyway.I would rather have a rear of flashlight pressure switch with push for on , push for off. I think the all Pic aluminum forend with nice rubber rail covers will be very comfortable.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

Just curious to your reasoning. I have no direct experience to draw on.

I was looking hard at the Surefire rail with the LaRue LED Battle Light as an option. LED's have come a long way in light quality and the Surefire bulb failure issue makes me worry. I'm thinking LED may be plenty bright for a home defense gun.

Still debating.

Thanks.

 

[Gordon]

Roger on the LaRue Battle light. It has 90 lumens! thats more than the standard Surefire 65 lumens, the thing is a tank, and on sale till 1 may 05 ; with 6 batteries, extra tube with no billeted rail grabber,tee shirt, hat - from REAL good people, for $199-shipped! I sent for mine last week.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

for $199-shipped! I sent for mine last week.

Gordon,

You DO realize that you just opened the flood gates for a "post a review" response.

Please, "post a review" when you actually get to use one.

I've been wholeheartedly happy with LaRue's offerings.

-Jim