Baby Browning Ballistics?

[egrieco]

I have recently acquired a "Baby Browning" .25 Cal ACP Pistol. I bought it to cary as an ultra-concealable pistol due to it's diminutive size. Unfortunately, I have become aware that the .25 ACP round really is a lightweight. According to the ballistics charts I have found it packs only about 62 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy, less than a .22 Long Rifle.

What I would like to know is what can be done to make this a more formidable weapon.
How hot can .25 ACP be loaded safely?
What pressures can this barrel withstand?

Also, what other firearms make a good ultra-concealable while still being effective?


P.S. - What are your favorite sources for ballistics data?

 

[ACP230]

I wouldn't try to hot rod the .25 ACP.
There isn't a lot of room for changing loads in that small case.

 

[Sean Smith]

What I would like to know is what can be done to make this a more formidable weapon.

Basically nothing, sorry. Load it with FMJ and hope for the best. If you have to use it, empty it into the eyeball at contact range, or just run away.

 

[BigG]

Use it as a backup for a large Bowie knife.

Seriously, the small blowback pocket autos are carefully balanced to work with standard ammunition and there is not much improvement possible, except, as Sean noted, to aim for eye.

 

[Old Fuff]

As the smallest conventional pistol cartridge the .25ACP is no powerhouse. However it has killed a lot of people, and convinced more then one punk that he’d better not do what he had in mind. Its threat value is probably greater then any actual performance.

I knew an ex-GI from World War Two who shot a German soldier dead with one shot from a 6.25mm Mauser pistol while searching a house in France. The unlucky soldier was coming down a flight of stairs, and when he was exposed enough to present a target, BANG! Did luck play a part in this? Sure it did. My point is that the .25ACP is potentially lethal, and available in the smallest package.

The .22LR may be slightly more powerful. I say, “may†because most people compare ballistics between a .25 with a 2-inch barrel vs. a .22 out of a 6-inch pistol or even a rifle. However the .25 has a center-fire primer, that is more reliable then a rim-fire cartridge with a thicker case, and the full-jacketed bullet is more likely to feed, and to penetrate. When you are using any cartridge in this class penetration becomes very important. You can’t over-penetrate with a twenty-five.

You would be well advised to carry something bigger then a vest-pocket pistol. But when you can’t your Browning will provide some security. It’s far better then nothing.

 

[gbelleh]

what can be done to make this a more formidable weapon.

Well, you could tie a string to it and swing the pistol around wildly.

You could fill the barrel or magazine with explosives and turn it into a grenade.

You could tie a big knife to it.

Seriously, if you want it to be as formidable a weapon as possible, take it to the range and practice and practice with it.

 

[AK103K]

I have a Baby, and while it is small and reliable it is what it is and you need to deal with that. I wont carry mine with a round in the chamber, and that makes it a "two hand' gun to get in action. A friend of mine used to carry his loaded with a round in the chamber, safety on, wrapped in a hankie in his back pocket. He bent over while working in the garden and it went off. Luckily, only his Levis were damaged and no one was hurt. Its basicly a "contact" distance gun and you might be better served with a knife at that distance. It will probably do more damage.

 

[Gordon]

Old Fuff perfectly summed up my 40 years of .25acp carrying. My reccomendation is use GECO (RWS) ammo which SEEMS hotter out of everything I've fired it. It has a super hard and slippery nickle silver bullet jacket, and RWS primers are very reliable. If you find some long out of print MagSafe ammo with solid copper hollowpoints they feed well and broke 1050fps out of my Berretta jet fire(I only have a dozen left, but they are in the magazine of my Baby Browning!)

 

[tex_n_cal]

You could also throw the gun at the bad guy. Odds are if he picks it up and tries to fire it very quickly he'll get a finger in front of the muzzle, and will become seriously distracted a moment later.

Seriously, I know the baby Brownings and Colts are made like fine watches, but even given the low power they are very hard to shoot accurately.

 

[Coltdriver]

I have a Baby Browning too.

They are neat little pistols. That you can easily carry one in your shirt pocket is a great plus.

I have been running Fiochi hard ball in mine.

Six rounds popped off very quickly will distract anyone just long enough for you to get a running start in the opposite direction. I can get all six rounds into a pie plate in under three seconds with no problem.

They are definitely a three feet and under kind of pistol but given a choice between the little Browning and nothing, I will take the Browning every time.

I would urge you to learn to point shoot it, ie forget about the sights and learn to shoot it by where you are pointing it. It is not very hard to pick that skill up and at three feet you ain't gonna be aiming anyway. That is probably the number one thing you can do to get the most out of the dimuitive pistol.

Do not carry it with a round in the chamber. Mine was a beater that I took apart and rebuilt. I had to replace a couple of parts. In the process I came to understand just how marginal the striker arrangement is in the pistol. If you saw it you would never ever carry it with a round in the chamber. There is no mechanical system to catch the striker if it slips accidentallly.

For all of the stories you hear about how ineffective a .25 is supposed to be they have sure killed a lot of humans. That Baby Browning is better than nothing any day of the week.

 

[tex_n_cal]

Since the original poster DID ask about reloading for the Baby, you can look in the current Hornady manual for data. They make a 50 grain hollowpoint XTP bullet for the .25. No bet on expansion, but the HP might cut a little more tissue than the RN

They caution that it is VERY easy to double charge a case, because it is visually very dificult to tell 2.4 grains of powder from 1.2 grains of powder!

I'd most likely 100% weigh every charge, and 100% weigh all loaded rounds, to make sure I didn't double charge one. This sounds like a slow process!

 

[Sven]

Buddy at the club had one of these (1963 production, 99% finish) that was available for PPT - I sprung for it. If anything, a testiment to Browning's cool gun designs, and at most a hopeful deterrent carried in Condition Zero - say, answering the door on a hot summer's day.

Can you imagine trying to shoot IDPA with this pistol? What a tough course THAT would be. I could walk between targets, trying to pull that mag out with the heel release.

Will post pics soon - my 10 day cooling off period ended today but I haven't heard from the 'gatekeeper'. As Matt Drudge would say: The Baby Browning is 'Developing strong... ' around here. Any other information / stories / advice on the Baby Browning would be appreciated!

Anyone have holster recommendations? Besides your sock, that is.

Thanks,

-s

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. Here are some chronographed velocities not from a Browning, but a little Beretta. They are likely in the same ballpark.

.25 ACP (Beretta 950):

Winchester 50 gr FMJ Ave. Vel. = 805 ft/sec, ES: 60, SD: 21
Hornady 35 gr XTP Ave. Vel. = 996 ft/sec, ES: 73, SD: 24

The expanded bullet was fired into water. The measured dimensions are 0.39 x 0.38 x 0.25" tall. The bullet weighed 35 grains. I have no idea how much this bullet would or would not penetrate in a human.

Here's the same .25 next to an expanded .45 ACP.

Sorry, but that's about it for me on the .25 ACP. I do think that if one just must be used for protection, placement will be even more necessary than ever.

Best.

 

[tex_n_cal]

Hornady now has a .25 cal XTP????

???

just what I need, another tempting handloading exercise. As if the .351 Winchester, .400 Corbon, and .500-450 #1 express weren't bad enough.

edit to add: I wonder what a .38 Super necked to .25 cal could do in a 1911? apologies for mind going off on a wild tangent

 

[mini14jac]

Stephen,
That is a great picture of the .25 and .45 rounds.
Kind of puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?

I ordered some S&B ammo for my brother's Raven.
Other S&B ammo is slightly hotter than standard pressure rounds, so I'm hoping the .25 is also.

Also, what other firearms make a good ultra-concealable while still being effective?

I vote for the KelTec P32, or P3AT (.380).
We have one of each. At 9 and 10 ounces loaded, respectively,
they're hard to beat for hideaway guns.

 

[mercedesrules]

I have a couple of these:

The Bauer .25

I don't carry them but I think they are very cool. They are a stainless version of the Baby.

MR

 

[SirVette]

Muzzle energy nos. are similiar for 22lr & 25 out of same length short barrels.
A test shows the following.
2.5 " Barrels ............. Muzzle Energy ... Highest Vel. of ammo tested
Beretta 950BS .25 ....... 66-75 ............... 869
Beretta 21-A 22LR ....... 58-69 ............... 987
The 21 is a DA version of the 950.

Also, what other firearms make a good ultra-concealable while still being effective?

Walther TPH.

 

[Snowdog]

I firmly believe two rounds of .25acp to the face of an attacker at close range will decisively stack the odds against that attacker doing anything without medical attention, let alone continuing an attack.
A clean hit to the forehead may not kill like a one through the eye socket, but it will put an assailant either on the ground or in a different reality (one that doesn't correspond with his original intentions). Follow that with another... you get the picture.

The .22LR, .25acp and .32acp can be quite effective if you can reliably hit a head-size target under stress with adrenaline convulsing your movements like an epileptic on a caffeine jolt. If you can do that, those cartridges can put a man down quite nicely.

I don't like such limitations in order for my defensive firearm to be effective. I like the idea of being able to aim for a much larger target in those stressful situations than an attacker's constantly-moving noggin.

 

[Sven]

Baby

Picked her up today. The Baby was a little scared of the Valtro, but I'm sure they'll get along in the safe:

[
Hi-Res

 

[Sven]

Another comparison:


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Edit... Doh!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I just love these posts about how a shot to the eye socket will have X amount of impact on the bad guy. That is fine and dandy, but few folks have the ability or the opportunity to make the great eye socket shots.

Shooting anyone in the face with any firearm will no doubt cause a need for medical attention.

Yes, the .25 acp has killed a lot of people. It is a cartridge that has been around a long time. Heck, 007 killed dozens. All that sort of reasoning means NADA, nothing.

The bottom line is that the .25 acp is an extremely poor excuse for a weapon to be employed in self defense. Yes, it is better than nothing, but so too is breaking wind in the face of the attacker. Being better than nothing does not mean it is better than something as 'nothing' is a non-value. If carried as a 'better than nothing' option, it should be because you have gone through all your other weapons in a battle. The 'better than nothing' reasoning is not a good justification to carry this little gun and not anything else. "Better than nothing" is really poor consideration if it is a criterion used for selection a first line of defense weapon.

I am not being critical of the individuals here, only the posts made that have been repeated time and time again. These are not new sorts of statements. Don't buy into the myth that the .25 acp is somehow a reasonable defensive gun. Just because people have been killed by the gun and caliber does not mean it will work well for you when you need it to do what is needed. And those great eye socket shots, they do happen and when they do, they are the making of a great myth, no doubt. Nobody has any idea on how many people miss eye sockets or how many of the great eye socket hits are actually accidental.

 

[Sven]

Q: What would JMB do?
A: Probably pack a .45!

I think of the Browning as a cool design that seems implemented pretty well. While not practical or likely effective, it is VERY "James Bond". Close-ups of the Baby Browning .25 ACP:


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The external firing pin cocking status indicator is cool - did Browning come up with that idea, or did he 'borrow' it from someone else?


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Uncocked
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To the original poster: sorry for thread 'veer'. In response to your original question: For ballistics data, I turn to current loading manuals as my first source.

Another fun tool is ballistics software. My favorite free online tool so far is Jeremy's Small Arms Exterior Ballistics Calculator. Plug in the weight and ballistics coefficient for the round you wish to use, change to the approximate muzzle velocity and then hit enter and the system kicks out data for different ranges. Outputs results include:

* Range - distance from muzzle that the sample is taken at
* Path - distance of the bullet from the line of sight, positive numbers are above and negative are below
* Velocity - speed that the bullet is traveling
* Energy - bullet's energy, deer hunters want 1000 ft.lbs or more at the maximum range that they intend to shoot
* Drop - drop of bullet from the line of sight if the firearm were held level rather than the usual slight pointing upward
* Momentum - bullet's ability to maintain velocity, metallic silhouette shouters need 1.00 or more lb.sec of momentum at the rams for reliable knock down
* Flight Time - time from the muzzle for the bullet to reach this point
* Max Height - if the firearm were sighted in for this range rather than Rifle Zero then this is the maximum height above the line of sight that the bullet would have reached getting to this point
* Adjust - this is the adjustment necessary in Minute Of Angle to change the Rifle Zero from its current setting to this range
* 10 MPH Wind - this is the horizontal deflection of the bullet if it were encountering a 10 MPH cross wind

A lot of data, and plotted out all the way to 1000 yards... I hope you find this software as fun and interesting as I do.

Just be careful working up loads and watch those pressures. And with the Baby Browning, watch those fingers!

 

[Dr.Rob]

I wouldn't carry my Colt Vest pocket .25 cocked and loaded either, but i do stoke it with Fiocchi ammo.. seems to be hotter.

And I can kill an orange at 7 paces regularly. Well, more than 3 out of 6 shots.