Badger Guns in Milwaukee:“#1 crime-gun dealer”, again!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dolomite

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
Messages
57
Although I choose to spend my money mainly at gun shops that support competitive handgun sports, I’ve been to Badger plenty of times. And with the charm and grace of those bad boys behind the counter, it’s hard to believe they sell anything to anyone.

Suburban gun shop tops list:
It leads nation in selling weapons later tied to crimes


http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=429811
(subscription sometimes required – just enter a bogus e-mail addy if a window comes up)

“In 1998, Badger had the most crime guns traced to it among all gun dealers in the United States and then fell from the top spot, only to regain the spot last year. Badger has been criticized for selling cheap handguns, which were bought by "straw buyers" with clean records and then passed on to gang members. In a 1999 sweep, the majority of straw buyers bought the guns legally at Badger.”

“In 2005, there were 537 crime guns - an average of more than 10 a week - recovered and traced to Badger, the Milwaukee area's largest gun dealer. None of the others in the top five had more than 500 crime guns traced to them, according to the document from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.”
“(Co-owner) Beatovic attributed the high ranking to the low number of gun stores in Milwaukee, Badger's proximity to a high-crime area and the practice of Milwaukee police of tracing every recovered gun, something that not all departments do.

Beatovic said his store on S. 43rd St. isn't part of the problem. He said he often testifies in court cases, opens his records to detectives and frequently calls police to arrest people trying to buy guns illegally.

"We are not the bad guys, damn it. I don't care what those numbers say," he said.”

“Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett today is scheduled to meet with Beatovic, along with top police commanders and prosecutors, to talk about curbing gun violence. The meeting comes on the heels of a bloody weekend in Milwaukee in which 28 people were shot, four of them fatally.
<’the powerful gun lobby’ is blamed in an editorial elsewhere in today’s Journal-Sentinel for this past weekend’s record 28 shootings>

"I want to sit down and roll up our sleeves and see that the guns they sell don't end up being used in crimes," he said.

Milwaukee County Assistant District Attorney John Chisholm, head of the gun unit, also will be at the meeting. He said that Badger helps him and other authorities, and agreed that Milwaukee's policy of tracing all guns used in crimes probably drives up Badger's numbers.”


Studies have shown that most crime guns change hands at least once after they are sold by a gun shop or other dealer. However, no background check or paperwork for sale is done after the initial purchase. That is wrong, Beatovic said.
He said he has done background checks for people who are selling guns privately and want to make sure they aren't selling to a felon. Beatovic said all gun sales should require background checks.


And my favorite line in the whole article:

"Anyone in their right mind should not be against it - and that comes from a gun owner and NRA member," he said.”

That should read: “and that comes from a gun store owner who stands to make a lot of money on transfers, in spite of the fact that there isn’t one shining example of a city or state that’s found gun crime to go down with the enforcement of mandatory background checks on private transfers.”
 
He said he has done background checks for people who are selling guns privately and want to make sure they aren't selling to a felon. Beatovic said all gun sales should require background checks.
Great idea! And while we're at it, let's require background checks for all dope sales .... :rolleyes: :p
 
And while we're at it, let's require background checks for all dope sales ....
Nope. Can't do that. Would violate 5th Amendment protection against self incrimination. You can only require background checks for purchase of legal items. :rolleyes:
 
Dolomite, I wish I had something to add, but you pretty much summed it up.

I find it hard to believe that a gun shop such as Badger could be #1 in the US for crime-gun traces for so many years, and manage to remain in business if there was any problem with thier paperwork or procedures. They already dropped the "ring of fire" inexpensive autos from Bryco, Jennings, Davis etc.

What more can they actualy do?

After the Shooter's Shop completely sold out Monkeyleg and the WCCA/WCCM over the machine gun shoot, and lied, claiming that they didn't know it was for a PAC targeted at Doyle, and that they're "non partisan", when they knew full well up front it was for the PAC, and that Dick was calling it off over the ambiguity in WI's MG laws...

So it's heartwarming to see Badger selling us out on in-state face-to-face private sales. :rolleyes:

Now we just need Fletcher Arms in Waukesha to sell us out in a news article somehow, (Hey, claiming no one "needs" EBR's is still availible...) and the three largest indpendant gun stores in the Milwaukee metro will have stabbed us in the back.

Am I missing anybody?

The big-box places like Sportsman's Warehouse are looking better all the time...
 
Nope. Can't do that. Would violate 5th Amendment protection against self incrimination. You can only require background checks for purchase of legal items.
Hey - you might be on to something there ... does that mean that a felon does not need a background check to buy a gun, since filling out the form 4473 itself would be a form (pun intended) of self-incrimination :confused:

:p :D
 
"Anyone in their right mind should not be against it - and that comes from a gun owner and NRA member," he said.”

It’s just so beautifully crafted - as if nobody in their right mind would or could openly choose to be either one of those two things: a gun owner or a NRA member.:fire:

Anyways, I’m sure the Badger owners/FFL holders have been bending over backwards for every single branch of LE that came through their doors – opening their books at the slightest inquiry, phoning the feds every time they sense a straw purchase about to go down, etc.

But look what it got them: A try out for the Mayor’s anti-violence team.

Keep bending Badger, keep bending. Round about the time that you are shutting down the business for good it will become clear that you weren’t bending – you were getting bent over.

Gun owners - if you're brave enough to admit that you are as much (and right minded too) - should take a lesson from this: Lay down with dogs and you will get fleeced!:neener:
 
Dolomite, got to agree with you...as friendly and helpful as they are at Badger, I am shocked that they are not the largest gun dealer in the country! Oh yea, forgot, they are...just to the wrong clients! Guess you have to be on the same side of the fence.
 
I used to live in Milwaukee and still visit the city from time to time.
They are number one because the city of Milwaukee actually traces the guns used in crimes. Not all cities do this. Even the head of the gun unit confirms this theory:
Milwaukee County Assistant District Attorney John Chisholm, head of the gun unit, also will be at the meeting. He said that Badger helps him and other authorities, and agreed that Milwaukee's policy of tracing all guns used in crimes probably drives up Badger's numbers.”
There are only three of four gun stores in the greater Milwaukee area, not counting Gander Mountain.
Since this place has faced media pressure before, the owner may have said stuff just for public consumption. I don't think he feels a need to provoke the mayor and start some baseless investigations. This is a legal tactic, you know. Just keep investigating and such, forcing a guy to hire lawyers - expensive lawyers. And you know nobody will donate enough to offset those costs.
What is important is what he does behind close doors.

And in years past I have bought from these guys. I sometimes rent range time when I visit the city and get cleaning stuff too. I've never been treated rudely.
 
A question....??

Since it would seem from this news report that most of the "crime guns" are obtained by criminals through straw buyers - why aren't they putting the straw buyers in jail?

The media always has a lot to say about straw buyers in city after city - but seldom do they report that these buyers are doing any hard time - unless they are gun running too.

If these straw buyers are legal buyers (not prohibited persons) and aren't obvious about what they are up to, how is a sales person to know? However each strw buyer leaves behind a #4473 form which should be enough to nail them.

If anyone cared - which obviously they don't. :cuss: :banghead:
 
I've never been to Badger, but after reading the article in the urinal-sentinel, I was tempted to cut the artical out, highlight the quote and take a ride to Badger today after work. Would be fun to show interest in buying a high dollar item, and as they pull out the 4473, throw the newspaper clipping on the counter and tell them that I decided to buy the same gun elsewhere instead. Afterseeing the greasy looking tool of an owner on the news tonight, I'm glad I didn't waste my time.

Now we just need Fletcher Arms in Waukesha to sell us out in a news article somehow, (Hey, claiming no one "needs" EBR's is still availible...) and the three largest indpendant gun stores in the Milwaukee metro will have stabbed us in the back.

You need to get out of Milwaukee more and see the country side. Drive up HWY 41 to the little town of Lomira where there is one outstanding gun shop and another smaller harder-to find gun shop where you will get good service by reputable people and won't hear any backtalk from fair whether friends.
 
For years, Badger has been the #1 store in the country with traces to so-called "crime guns."

Mick and Wally and crew have been more than cooperative with local and federal law enforcement.

Their problem is that their store is the closest to the bad parts of Milwaukee--which is to say almost any part of the city of Milwaukee.

Their second problem is that the media never reports the efforts they've gone through to help apprehend criminals.

About five or six years ago, they noticed a customer who fit the perfect profile of a straw buyer. And they let the ATF know. And the ATF assigned an agent to track this straw buyer.

Over the course of less than a year, this straw buyer purchased 26 guns, which he then sold to felon friends of his.

When it came time to prosecute, the US attorney declined to do so, saying that he couldn't prove intent.

The ATF agent on the case was furious.

When Badger opened back in the 1980's, the area was different: blue collar, nice modest homes, and customers who were law-abiding.

That's all changed.

Mick and Wally have always been behind the issue of gun rights. There's something else going on, and it certainly smells of politics.
 
Just playing devils advocate..

What is the best way to prevent straw purchases without using registration, limiting sales, or having the gov keep purchasing records? I am just curious to hear some suggestions about how we can stop straw sales and keep guns sales as true to RKBA as possible. Are both just incompatible?
 
What is the best way to prevent straw purchases without using registration, limiting sales, or having the gov keep purchasing records? I am just curious to hear some suggestions about how we can stop straw sales and keep guns sales as true to RKBA as possible. Are both just incompatible?

Straw sales wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the 1968 Gun Control Act. Making new laws will simply make new classes of criminals or new criminal opportunities for that matter.
 
Monkeyleg, you aren't kidding about the area changing. When I grew up there were a lot of factories and such nearby. Sad to see the old hometown go downhill.
They said what they had to say so they won't get raked over the coals again. This happened about a few years ago. The same company that owns the paper owns an NBC affiliate there and a radio station. Last time the stories were repetative and on-going.

The people at Fletchers are really into all the gun sports and always up on gun rights issues. Beyond the fact that they missed on ordering one of those Taurus repros of the Lightning, I wouldn't worry about what they do.
 
#shooter:

Over the course of less than a year, this straw buyer purchased 26 guns, which he then sold to felon friends of his. When it came time to prosecute, the US attorney declined to do so, saying that he couldn't prove intent. The ATF agent on the case was furious.

However each strw buyer leaves behind a #4473 form which should be enough to nail them.

Speaking from experience... The problem is U.S. Attorneys that are too busy to prosecute. If they started putting straw buyers in jail the word would get around, and straw buying wouldn't be so popular.
 
If the area is condusive to the dilema, why do the owners insist on staying in that location? As much as they (Badger) pontificate on their helping to maintain a "high road" pertaining to the product they sell, it appears that they fall into the same catagory as the vendor that puts a candy store next to an elementary school. If they claim "convenience for their customers", just WHO are their customers?
 
I am just curious to hear some suggestions about how we can stop straw sales and keep guns sales as true to RKBA as possible.
Me too! Like Monkey Leg's story above regarding Law Enforcement’s less-than-stellar enthusiasm for prosecuting a known “straw buyer” served up to them on a silver plate? Virtually every gun store owner I know has a story just like it.
What is the best way to prevent straw purchases without using registration, limiting sales, or having the gov keep purchasing records?
Our Mayor here in Milwaukee seems to be (as of right now) harping on two particular issues. Keep in mind that it doesn't matter one-wit to many in city government whether a proposed law will actually deter crime or lessen suffering - nein - it is a war! Any gun control law that's passed is a small battle won, a hole in the armor of their enemy; the armed citizen.

They will call them "reasonable", they will call them "common sense" - but all they usually end up doing is hindering the law abiding while having no effect on the crime abiding. The mayor needs to wake up and smell the “criminals-don’t-watch-your-news-conferences” coffee. Instead he’s “fighting” for:
  • Unfettered access to ATF gun trace records (and he should get it too – right after he successfully lobbies for gun industry immunity from frivolous law suits).
  • He wants all private transfers to go through a FFL (unable to point to a single city or state where instituting a law like has resulted in a decrease in violent crime, he wants it anyway).

Also, I haven’t heard him mention it in a while, but his office still thinks “ballistic fingerprinting” is a viable crime fighting tool – in spite of New Jersey’s failure – but that damn CSI TV series is really, really popular here – so what can you do? Then there's a popular sound bite of him saying, "There's no reason a teenager needs to own a handgun!" Apparently, adulthood doesn't begin at 18 (except for tax purposes).

So there you have it, different city – same old useless attempts to confuse criminal control with gun control.
 
If the area is condusive to the dilema, why do the owners insist on staying in that location? As much as they (Badger) pontificate on their helping to maintain a "high road" pertaining to the product they sell, it appears that they fall into the same catagory as the vendor that puts a candy store next to an elementary school. If they claim "convenience for their customers", just WHO are their customers?

If he moved, "the business" would just follow him. Also, unless he moved to a middle-of-nowhere location on unincorporated land on the extreme fringes of the Milwaukee Metro, it's unlikely he'd ever get the zoning to set up shop. And that's assuming that relocation wouldn't be an impossible financial hardship for his business.

You've also got to understand, thier location is still convenient to the rest of the city too. And what constitutes the "slum" for the Milwaukeeans of the more uptight European extractions, would look pretty darn nice in lots of other cities in the U.S. Monkeyleg is engaging in a tad of hyperbole to make his point. :) On that basis, for a Chicago, or Philidelphia, the area that Badger is in is "just fine". They're actualy still quite far from the Milwaukee's "North Side" which is the largest slum/crime area. They're on the border of the "near south side" which is a somewhat smaller, more Hispanic than black, depressed area, that fades out into decent blue-collar neighborhoods much more quickly.

Also, that "rust belt" area the tiny burb of West Milwaukee, is being leveled for big-box retailers, and small shopping centers as I type this. So they're right on the end of a corridor that's experiencing some significant re-development.

If you want to be even more Un-PC, part of Badger's problem is that he's right on the intersection of two bus lines. He's one door down from the intersection of two major streets.
The first time they became #1 in the country for traces, they stopped selling the potmetal "ring of fire" guns from Bryco, Jennings, Lorcin, etc. When they cooperate so heavily with the ATF and law enforcment now, what more can they do?

The next closest shop is The Shooter's shop, exactly 45 blocks to the west. However, it's 1 1/2 blocks down from the same east/west street that Badger is on. It's not quite as visible, and its in the middle of a nicer residential district, instead of on the edge of the West Milwaukee "rust belt" of abandoned factories. I've personaly seen Shooter's Shop kick out straw-buyers plenty of times too. However, because of their location slightly deeper into the burbs, some of that "straw buyer element" perhaps feels a bit more uncomfortable in that neighborhood. (Thank God, since I live there...)

The THR's who are not familiar with Milwaukee have got to remember we are a very highly segregated city, both racialy, and socio-economicaly. Many live thier whole lives in the Milwauke metro without ever seeing certain sides of town.
 
AJ's right about them trying to move; they wouldn't get approval from the zoning board.

The former head of the ATF office here was very vocal in his praise of Badger when the story broke years ago about them being #1 for "crime guns." The ATF agents here are, I'm told, very pleasant to deal with.

I have personal issues with the owners of Badger, but I feel compelled to defend them because I believe that Mick was coerced into saying that he supports checks on private purchases. (In their heart of hearts, though, I think the owners of just about every brick-and-mortar gun store would like to see gun shows abolished and private transfers subject to the same NICS check they have to put their customers through).

At one time there were well over a dozen gun stores in Milwaukee county. Now we're down to two (if you don't count Buckhorn Guns, which I don't, since they're so tiny).

I'm sure Mayor Barrett would love to see Badger gone.
 
If the store moved and they could get zoning permits and such for the gun store portion, they would still not get it for the range. Say goodbye to that revenue - and the window shoppers it brings in.
Since your hunters and plinkers will now buy all their ammo from Wal-Mart if they weren't before, you lose some of your shotgun and rifle buisness too.
Gander Mountain sells reloading stuff, in addition to the internet options. I don't know if this is a significant part of their buisness, but since there are no benefits to shopping at Badger over Gander Mountain, you lose a large part of that.

Would the straw-buyer buisness follow them? They would definitely go somewhere. This store is away from the North Side, but convenient to the South Side where quite a bit of crime occurs too. Just follow Lincoln east.
 
I am sure that if you moved Badger to New Berlin or even Brookfield it would cause a significant decrease in the "straw buyer" element. As far as a convenient location, I personally feel their currrent location is untennable for some one like myself. The "central" location is where I have escaped from over thirty years ago. Born and raised on the northwest side (Villard Ave), thank God I spent most weekends at grandparents in Muskego during the school year and all summer at my other grandparents in Door Co near Fish Creek. Graduated from HS in '70, drafted, college, then traveled for work all over the USA and Canada. Settled back down in far southwestern Waukesha county in mid '90's with a couple of hundred acres in far northeastern part of the state. Personally I think there is some responsibility as to what type of business you have and where you put it. If you can not have a profitable business in a location that will limit a certain element (straw buyers), but it is profitable in a location accessible more to the wrong clientle, what IS the motivation?
From my limited dealings with Badger, my only real negatives are their hard to get to location and their refusal to allow me to have transfers brought in through them. In the last year, I have had no trouble bringing 18 rifles from all over country and moved a few out. My intent is not for profit, but for unique, compelling, or collectable. Sometimes I have had to buy 3-4 to acquire the specific one that I want, then sell the others (usually at less than market value). Badger's principal's did not want to work with me on my hobby, so the lost me as a customer.
 
I would only be concerned with how does their prices compare with the other gun stores in the area.:)
 
Depends if you are purchasing it in the front of the building or the back of the building. Understandably they have to be profitable, but they also have competition once you get out of the Metro area. It seems to me that the outlying competitors are more reasonably priced to the average Joe walking in off the street. Could be that Badger's main customers are "urban" buyers and do not have access to other vendors.
 
What is the best way to prevent straw purchases without using registration, limiting sales, or having the gov keep purchasing records? I am just curious to hear some suggestions about how we can stop straw sales and keep guns sales as true to RKBA as possible. Are both just incompatible?
As Cracked Butt said above, we could eliminate all straw sales simply by repealing the GCA '68.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top