Ball powder and factory ammo.
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Arkansas Paul
Member
I see the point you're trying to make Clint.
I will tell you this though.
My handloaded ammunition is more accurate in my rifle than any factory loadings I have ever tried. To me that is the definition of being better than factory. Will they be better in your rifle or someone elses'? Maybe, maybe not.
But I'm here to tell you that my handloads are of as good a quality as ANYTHING you can purchase on a shelf. Also, my safety methods are above and beyond anything a mass produced round goes through.
I will tell you this though.
My handloaded ammunition is more accurate in my rifle than any factory loadings I have ever tried. To me that is the definition of being better than factory. Will they be better in your rifle or someone elses'? Maybe, maybe not.
But I'm here to tell you that my handloads are of as good a quality as ANYTHING you can purchase on a shelf. Also, my safety methods are above and beyond anything a mass produced round goes through.
Ironicaintit
Member
Manufacturers absolutely rule at making ammo....in large quantities. They aim for a spec that works in every firearm, and then churn them out in huge numbers.
I cant do that.
I can make a round that are tailored to my stuff, and get better results. But they may or may not fire in yours!
Whenever anybody ever asks about found, inherited or friended reloads, the vast majority of the time the answer is, "pull them and use the components".
And i agree with that (for the most part)
But with factory ammo, its, "shoot them!"....unless its old amerc.
I cant do that.
I can make a round that are tailored to my stuff, and get better results. But they may or may not fire in yours!
Whenever anybody ever asks about found, inherited or friended reloads, the vast majority of the time the answer is, "pull them and use the components".
And i agree with that (for the most part)
But with factory ammo, its, "shoot them!"....unless its old amerc.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
100% pure, unadulterated bovine excrement. I cannot even begin to imagine how someone thinks that anything mass produced is going to be better than something hand-crafted. In virtually any context. Factory ammo is like factory guns. Sure, it'll go bang but there are lots of shortcuts made during its manufacturing process to make a price point. Manufacturers can make more of it faster. Not better. They are not weighing every charge or inspecting every component.
I tend to buy factory ammo to get a baseline test that the gun is functioning properly when I buy a new firearm and for brass harvesting if don't already have it. After that it only gets diet of handloads that I would trust my life to any time any day.
2ndtimer
Member
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=781576
ClintM, take a look at my posts 13 and 16 in the above thread. I would put that .308 Win handload up against any factory load in any rifle. It was even assembled in New factory brass, with standard (not benchrest) primers. Sadly, you are mistaken in your blatant factory ammo is best statement. And by the way, my handloads chronograph 100 fps slower than Federal Gold Medal Match loads with the same bullet weight, so the pressure is even less than the of factory ammo.
ClintM, take a look at my posts 13 and 16 in the above thread. I would put that .308 Win handload up against any factory load in any rifle. It was even assembled in New factory brass, with standard (not benchrest) primers. Sadly, you are mistaken in your blatant factory ammo is best statement. And by the way, my handloads chronograph 100 fps slower than Federal Gold Medal Match loads with the same bullet weight, so the pressure is even less than the of factory ammo.
gamestalker
member
There is no way anyone here is going to drive this point home. Mass produced ammo can not even begin to compete with the performance qualities of properly developed reloads. I not wasting any more time on this debate.
GS
GS
I know very well why someone will think factory ammo will shoot better than and hand loaded or reloaded stuff will. I also know they are ignorant of what shoots bullets most accurate. But we all are ignorant about some things; at least I am.
After inspecting the reloads from two people who made that claim, the basis for their reasoning was clear:
Powder charges had a 2 to 3 grain spread in the .270 ammo.
Bullet pull/release force varied from 5 to 40 pounds on those .30-06 rounds.
Bullet runout was near 3/16 inch on the .270 rounds.
Primers seated from crushed cups to sticking out 1/16th inch.
.270 cases had pliers teeth marks on the case mouths evident they were used to crimp the bullets in place.
150 and 200 grain Sierra SBT's loaded in the same .30-06 ammo box with powder charge weights of two visibly different powders mixed together.
OAL varied over 1/8 inch on both .270 and .30-06.
Some people do not have the abilities to be brain surgeons or auto mechanics. But they know that and do other things better than those two do their thing. Same thing for reloaders; some should not try it. Too bad they don't understand. It pays to trust the opinions of those who excel in things and prove their worth time after time after time.
Someone bought a new .308 Win rifle for his first bolt action centerfire. He couldn't make it hit a paper plate at 100 yards with different factory ammo. Sold it to a relative because he could hit that plate occasionally with his lever action .32 Spcl. claiming bolt action rifles had poor accuracy His relative easily got inch or so groups at a hundred with it and that ammo at the shooting range we were at after telling me his brother in law didn't know how to adjust the scope on it. He believed the gunsmith that mounted it made everything perfect so there was no need to sight it in.
After inspecting the reloads from two people who made that claim, the basis for their reasoning was clear:
Powder charges had a 2 to 3 grain spread in the .270 ammo.
Bullet pull/release force varied from 5 to 40 pounds on those .30-06 rounds.
Bullet runout was near 3/16 inch on the .270 rounds.
Primers seated from crushed cups to sticking out 1/16th inch.
.270 cases had pliers teeth marks on the case mouths evident they were used to crimp the bullets in place.
150 and 200 grain Sierra SBT's loaded in the same .30-06 ammo box with powder charge weights of two visibly different powders mixed together.
OAL varied over 1/8 inch on both .270 and .30-06.
Some people do not have the abilities to be brain surgeons or auto mechanics. But they know that and do other things better than those two do their thing. Same thing for reloaders; some should not try it. Too bad they don't understand. It pays to trust the opinions of those who excel in things and prove their worth time after time after time.
Someone bought a new .308 Win rifle for his first bolt action centerfire. He couldn't make it hit a paper plate at 100 yards with different factory ammo. Sold it to a relative because he could hit that plate occasionally with his lever action .32 Spcl. claiming bolt action rifles had poor accuracy His relative easily got inch or so groups at a hundred with it and that ammo at the shooting range we were at after telling me his brother in law didn't know how to adjust the scope on it. He believed the gunsmith that mounted it made everything perfect so there was no need to sight it in.
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Jim Watson
Member
I have seen some of the home loads that bush talks about. I was just yesterday working to salvage some really lousy pistol reloads that a friend had considerately obtained for his wife. With the help of a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, I got it to where most of it would chamber. Before I hold another class for her, I will ask if he trusts his gun and his wife to the powder charges in it.
I am several years behind the times in rifle work. I cannot load .308 clearly more accurate than Black Hills Match. But I can load it a bit faster within published load limits and a lot less expensively. On the other hand, I can make some really nice .223... for the one rifle it is tailored for.
I would sure like to see a publication from somebody in the powder or ammo industry discussing powder specifications and performance. Having worked in the chemical process industry, I know that most operators really hate to change specifications on a mass produced item. I suspect that if the market director at Brand X wanted a truckload of powder optimized for loading .280 Halger, he would be shocked at the price. Sharpe put the wholesale price of such powder at $50 a pound, minimum, in the 1930s.
So I am doubtful of Internet Accounts of special powders to ammo loaders' wants. Blending powder at the end user is more feasible but still an expensive extra operation with equipment and testing requirements. Not the same as back blending for consistency at the factory.
On the other hand, the factories have more different powders than they sell at retail. I understand that Vihtavuori only canister grades about 1/3 of the powders they make. The other 2/3 goes to OEM.
I do not know current practice, but Hercules made NINE different grades of Red Dot. One was the canister grade for sale to reloaders, the other 8 went to OEM. How much special ordering or blending do you need with that many choices for one range of ammo?
I am several years behind the times in rifle work. I cannot load .308 clearly more accurate than Black Hills Match. But I can load it a bit faster within published load limits and a lot less expensively. On the other hand, I can make some really nice .223... for the one rifle it is tailored for.
I would sure like to see a publication from somebody in the powder or ammo industry discussing powder specifications and performance. Having worked in the chemical process industry, I know that most operators really hate to change specifications on a mass produced item. I suspect that if the market director at Brand X wanted a truckload of powder optimized for loading .280 Halger, he would be shocked at the price. Sharpe put the wholesale price of such powder at $50 a pound, minimum, in the 1930s.
So I am doubtful of Internet Accounts of special powders to ammo loaders' wants. Blending powder at the end user is more feasible but still an expensive extra operation with equipment and testing requirements. Not the same as back blending for consistency at the factory.
On the other hand, the factories have more different powders than they sell at retail. I understand that Vihtavuori only canister grades about 1/3 of the powders they make. The other 2/3 goes to OEM.
I do not know current practice, but Hercules made NINE different grades of Red Dot. One was the canister grade for sale to reloaders, the other 8 went to OEM. How much special ordering or blending do you need with that many choices for one range of ammo?
Those her are telling me how accurate their handloads are why not try those "pet loads" in 100 different rifles ? Also the reloads that do not function as mentioned above has to be taken into account of the handloads vs factory loads, you can't pick one handload in one rifle, nor one factory loads in one rifle to make a statement with any of the outcome being considered facts.
Just because you are 100fps below what the factory load you are comparing to (which seems to be the standard) you can not be sure of the pressures involved unless you have testing equipment to verify the pressure which is more than just peak pressure.
As far as my abilities to load accurate reliable ammo I have worked directly with Sierra, Cooper, Bushmaster, and indirectly with Hornady all of this was running a test on handloads, however I used a factory ammo as standard to compare to. I learned from this experience that factory ammo is the standard, we can sometimes work up a load that may perform better in areas to factory accuracy, velocity, and reliability many choose accuracy.
I don't want to keep battering back in forth, if you think you can reliably load ammunition above factory ammo standards for use in any firearm my hats off to you. I don't understand why we don't see a vast selection of handloaded ammo on the shelves even with the state of availability of factory ammo. Seems someone could make a load of money as has been touched on how much cheaper it is to handload.
Just because you are 100fps below what the factory load you are comparing to (which seems to be the standard) you can not be sure of the pressures involved unless you have testing equipment to verify the pressure which is more than just peak pressure.
As far as my abilities to load accurate reliable ammo I have worked directly with Sierra, Cooper, Bushmaster, and indirectly with Hornady all of this was running a test on handloads, however I used a factory ammo as standard to compare to. I learned from this experience that factory ammo is the standard, we can sometimes work up a load that may perform better in areas to factory accuracy, velocity, and reliability many choose accuracy.
I don't want to keep battering back in forth, if you think you can reliably load ammunition above factory ammo standards for use in any firearm my hats off to you. I don't understand why we don't see a vast selection of handloaded ammo on the shelves even with the state of availability of factory ammo. Seems someone could make a load of money as has been touched on how much cheaper it is to handload.
The reason lots of hand loads are not on dealer shelves is the marketing, warranty, labor, licensing and insurance costs added onto the component costs would price it way above commercial ammo. And only 1 out of 20 people would think it shot better than commercial ammo at a fraction of the cost.
Maybe 1 out of 1000 would properly test it to 98% confidence levels of accuracy both produced. They would shoot at least 100 shots per test group all with the rifle fired in free recoil to eliminate human error that accounts for over half the accuracy levels of hand held rifles.
Everyone does not shoot the same stuff at equal levels of accuracy. A few shoot tiny groups, some average and a few shoot huge groups. Oft times, most think they're the best.
Few people reload ammo as accurate as Federal or Black Hills commercial match ammo. Yet it's easily done with good new cases and the same components using the right tools and techniques.
Maybe 1 out of 1000 would properly test it to 98% confidence levels of accuracy both produced. They would shoot at least 100 shots per test group all with the rifle fired in free recoil to eliminate human error that accounts for over half the accuracy levels of hand held rifles.
Everyone does not shoot the same stuff at equal levels of accuracy. A few shoot tiny groups, some average and a few shoot huge groups. Oft times, most think they're the best.
Few people reload ammo as accurate as Federal or Black Hills commercial match ammo. Yet it's easily done with good new cases and the same components using the right tools and techniques.
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Arkansas Paul
Member
I dont' give a rat's derrier if my ammo reliably loads or shoots accurately in any rifle. I only care if it reliably loads and shoots accurately in my rifle.
I can legitimately claim that it is better in my rifle than factory. I don't care one bit if it's better in yours. That's not what we're trying to accomplish.
gamestalker
member
^^^ this, and also why I chose to take up reloading in the first place. I know I said I was finished with this debate, but I couldn't resist taking a glance to see what else has been said.
Reloading is, for many of us, a process by which to customize our ammo for a given firearm, not for every firearm, or any other firearm. And when performed properly with this specific purpose in mind, the results are almost always astounding, and have been for me for 30+ years.
Barnes bullets that spin in the case mouth are probably due to excessive crimp being applied, something I never do with a bottle neck cartridge unless it's for a tubular magazine, an elephant gun, or a MG. It seems that many new reloaders that see a canelure, or what appears to be a canelure, automatically assume it must be crimped. So it's my guess, and I contend, that if the spinning Barnes bullets were factory cartridges, the manufacturer didn't have the tooling adjusted correctly for a solid, and to much crimp was applied. However, this same issue can present with a cup & core bullet when over crimped.
GS
Reloading is, for many of us, a process by which to customize our ammo for a given firearm, not for every firearm, or any other firearm. And when performed properly with this specific purpose in mind, the results are almost always astounding, and have been for me for 30+ years.
Barnes bullets that spin in the case mouth are probably due to excessive crimp being applied, something I never do with a bottle neck cartridge unless it's for a tubular magazine, an elephant gun, or a MG. It seems that many new reloaders that see a canelure, or what appears to be a canelure, automatically assume it must be crimped. So it's my guess, and I contend, that if the spinning Barnes bullets were factory cartridges, the manufacturer didn't have the tooling adjusted correctly for a solid, and to much crimp was applied. However, this same issue can present with a cup & core bullet when over crimped.
GS
spitballer
Member
Ammo manufacturers produce quality ammo but I'm still amazed at how many factory rounds fail a simple "wobble test". Roll a box of factory ammo across the table and notice how many of the bullets wobble. Disconcerting, to say the least.
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